Author Topic: Need opion of someone with experience. (Read 867 times)

keyway · « **on:** February 02, 2005, 12:39:51 AM »

I was going around to local gun shops looking for a varmite gun to hunt groundhog and coyote. Thinking the best for me would be a 204 Ruger or 223 since I don't reload. Only one shop had any input on the 204 , he told
me the wind gust will throw off your shot. The other shops except for one suggested a 243. personally I would think the 243 to be a over kill. But after checking ballistics is does seem to be the flattest shooter. Any feed back would be helpful!

TennSquire · « **Reply #1 on:** February 02, 2005, 04:39:59 AM »

No experience with the 204 Ruger. I only read that it is a 20 caliber necked down from a 222 Remington Magnum case. It does shoot a very light bullet real fast. There's a theory about that kind of ballistics letting the round get to the target faster and flatter will not be affected by the wind.

I do have experience with the 223 and 243, though. Out to 250-275 yards I'll use the Hornady 55 grain V-Max in the 223. Living East of the Mississippi, and South of the snow line, that's about all I need.

If I take a trip out West for coyotes or prarie dogs, I carry the 243 and use the Federal 70 grain V-Shok Nosler ballistic tip. It's good out to 400+ yards if I can do my part.

There's a difference between shooting varmints and pelt hunting. You didn't say if you are wanting to keep the pelts. That probably won't be possible with the 243, especially on the smaller varmints. So for keeping the pelts and at shorter (under 300 yards) ranges, I'd use a 223. For longer ranges and larger game, I opt for the 243. Another theory about the 243 is that after varmint season you can load up with a 100 grain bullet and use it for larger game such as deer.

When stationed in California back in 1968 I did all of my coyote hunting up in the mountains. We'd set up on the side of one hill and spot trails on the side of another hill, 500+ yards across the valleys. I used a Winchester .264 Magnum with a 100 grain bullet and a 36 power scope. I also had my 243 with me back then but it just wouldn't perform to suit the way we were hunting.

TennSquire

skb2706 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 02, 2005, 08:39:45 AM »

Your local gun shop guy might be great about guns and some other things....he doesn't know dick about ballistics. A 40 gr. 204 bullet at 3600 fps is less effected by the wind than a comparable 40 gr. bullet in .224".
BC 40 gr. vmax .224" = .242

BC 40 gr. vmax .204 = .275

a .204 Ruger loaded to the max with 32 gr. bullets hits some where around 4200 fps........wind deflection is a result of BC, time of flight and wind speed. Higher bullet speed + higher BC = your gun guy is wrong.

Catfish · « **Reply #3 on:** February 02, 2005, 01:19:39 PM »

Yep, your guy guy is a salesman and not a shooter. I shoot a .17 AH, a 19 grn. bullet at 3,600 fps and never alow for wind at 250 yrds. With my .17 Rem. and 25 gn bullets I was getting about 4 in. drift at over 450 yrds. My drift was less than my drop in a 15 to 20 mph cross wind. I haven`t shot my .204 at that range yet, but I`m sure it will do better. Go with the .204 or a .17 Rem. They are good for an extra 100 yrds. over the .223 on coyote.

H_U_S_K_E_R · « **Reply #4 on:** February 04, 2005, 04:37:58 AM »

Not sure which gun shop you are going to, but I'm going to guess that the guy doesn't have much for 204 rifles or ammo in stock if he was trying to talk you out of it! There are now 2 Hornady, 1 Remington and 1 Winchester factory loads on my shelves, from 32 to 40 gr. With the minimal recoil, the flat trajectory, and the lessened pelt damage of the 204 I can't see why anyone would not want to own one.

Just my .02

Husker

aulrich · « **Reply #5 on:** February 04, 2005, 05:23:31 AM »

I have just about shot all three ( I own a 204 but no ammo yet local supply is dry for now). I have owned a 223 (I use a fiends regularly) and do own a 243. If you want to keep the fur 243 is gone, at calling distances FUBAR describes it.

But if it is a predator control thing it is good because the gun can be a muti-tasker being OK for both varmint and deer. I say OK for varmint because my varmints ar prairie dogs and you can go though lots of ammo in a day and 243 about 1/3 more to run than the other two. But I understand that ground hogs are much lower volume. Than and the 6 mm's don't out perform the smaller bores till after 300 yards.

If it's going to be a pure varmint gun you can't go to wrong with the 223 it's not the best fur gun but with the right bullet it will work. The cheap and available thing is really hard to over come.

There are three reasons I went 204 the big one is you are supposed to be able to see your hits through the scope(you need a pig of a 223 for that to happen) and with the right bullet more pelt friendly. I just bought it in a Handi if it was in a better gun there would be a third 22-250 like trajectory with 223 cost. The 40 grain loads really show there stuff after 300.

Hildy · « **Reply #6 on:** February 05, 2005, 10:59:53 AM »

I truly think the 223 is the ultimate varmint caliber. It is widely available, proven, accurate, and deadly beyond several hundred yards.

On groundhogs, the 223 will open them up out to 300-400y if you know your stuff to shoot that far. (ie:wind, drop, ect) I just shot a crow the other day at 275y with 52g Speer hp's and what was left of it fell out of the tree. Cheap to shoot also makes it great for groundhogs as you can get a great amount of shooting per summer out of them.

On coyotes, the 223 is also a beast. A 40g V-Max at about 3650fps is ultimate for fur and will explode inside the animal, demolishing the internals. It will take a coyote out to 300 yards with the right person behind the trigger. This is pretty far though when you get down to it. Think about 3 times the range of your 100y shooting line.

The 204 is also a great cartridge and that will be my next varmint caliber. Slightly outranging the 223 and being flatter shooting I think this gun is better suited for reloaders as the ammo availibility is slim at the time. Also, there is a slight variety of ammo for it. All of which are for varmints only...nothing for 'no meat damage'. In my opinion, a very good prairie dog cartridge. Small frangible bullets moving fast as hell.... :twisted:

If one needs more range than a 223 will offer on a yote or groundhog, I think the "beyond 22 cal" cartridges are best for this. I have my 25-06 ready to kill a hog/yote as far as I can see one.

keyway · « **Reply #7 on:** February 05, 2005, 01:41:17 PM »

Thanks for everyones input on the correct caliber for me to purchase. I went to a different local shop yesterday and he suggested the 204 also.
My son and I went to a neighboring town this morning for a gun show.
All we found were 222 and 22-250's the only idea I have know is to buy a 204 barrel for my Encore. My first choice will be the 204 Ruger and secondly will be 223. Again thanks for all the answers to my posting. It truly help me to decide on the best caliber for me.

Kurt · « **Reply #8 on:** February 06, 2005, 08:45:05 AM »

I used to say the 204 would be the last round I'd pick for coyote. However now that I find out they make a 40gr bullet I think differently indeed. I have a couple questions for you 204 shooters.
1, what is the heavyest bullet in 204 and,
2, what twist rates are available out there to handle them.

aulrich · « **Reply #9 on:** February 06, 2005, 10:05:43 AM »

Berger has a 50 Grain bullet I think it takes a 1/9 but from what I have seen most rifles are 1/12 so that means 40 gr is the biggest. Just remember the a 40 grain 204 head has a bc ~.239 where a .223 40 gr is ~.155 thats a significant difference.

Hildy · « **Reply #10 on:** February 07, 2005, 01:20:19 PM »

aulrich,

The ballistic coefficient greatly depends on bullet design. Depending on what 40 grain .224" bullet we are talking, the BC can vary by a great amount.

Down to business, a 40g Nosler Balliztic Tip from a 223 has a BC of around .220. I dunno what 40 grain bullet you were referring to, but this bullet, the Hornady Vmax, and the Sierra Biltzking should all have a BC of around this figure.

http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/cfrdetail.aspx?symbol=SBST223A&cart=MjIzIFJlbWluZ3Rvbg==

Those 40 grain factory loads are read at BC .226 at a nominal MV of 3700fps. According to Sierra and several other people, BC should go up as muzzle velocity goes down. Using Winchester's BC figures on the 40g Nosler BT out of both the 223 and 22-250, this seems true. The faster 22-250 has a BC of .214 while the 223 has a BC of .226 using the same bullet.

Perhaps you were thinking of a hollowpoint bullet with a less than spectacular bullet shape??

aulrich · « **Reply #11 on:** February 07, 2005, 04:01:42 PM »

The numbers I got were off of the berger web site I was looking up one so I grabbed the other. But I looked up the sierra 39 gr flat base is .287 I can't wait to see a slick bt version I wonder if it would break .300 .

20 cal 39 gr blitz king
http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=bullets&page=bc&submit=1&stock_num=1039&bullettype=0

22 cal 40 gr blitzking
http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=bullets&page=bc&submit=1&stock_num=1440&bullettype=0

Actually it takes a 65 gr bt in 22 cal to beat the 40 gr 20 cal

http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=bullets&page=bc&submit=1&stock_num=1395&bullettype=0