What the @$*@( ...has anyone heard of this....

[redneckd1]

I found a Handi in a pawn shop, wrong caliber for me but, see the post about someone wanting a .280, I thought I might buy it and trade/sell the barrel and get a .270 out of the deal.
 Well, I had a couple of inquiries about a sell/trade so I decided to go take a closer look at the gun and see if I could make a 'cash' offer. I was chit-chatting with the shop owner as I looked over the gun. Some of the first words out of my mouth, were "I'd buy it if it were a different caliber, but I might be able to sell this barrel and get one of my choice". Now, I looked over the gun for quite a few minutes even asked for a bore light and the guy never acted as if anything was wrong...until....I handed the rifle back across the counter and asked what would you take for a cash offer on the gun? His response:
"Well, I can not sell you the gun, since you do not intend to keep the gun and have made that known to me I can not sell it to you".

WHAT!! I have never heard of that, and I never said I was going to sell the gun, just the barrel, that is the beauty of these guns. They sell the barrels on E-bay for goodness sake!! I told him that I was keeping the gun and that I intended to send the frame to the manufacturer to get a trigger job and new barrel.

He did not care, he will not sell me the gun.

Now, I just kinda walked out befuddled, but the more I think about it, it really pisses me off!! I used to have a FFL (15 years ago) and I'm a law abidding citizen that has served for 19 years in the USAF, I've defended the right to bear arms and now I can't buy one!!! what in the world, over!!
What if I was going to buy it and give it as a gift to a hunting buddy, father, son, uncle, cousin or whatever as long as they were legally able to own the gun?

Any interenet lawyers that can help me out with this one would be greatly appreciated, I would love to go in there and force him to sell me the gun even if I didn't want it!!!! Just for the principle of the thing.

Confused!,
R

[Mac11700]

Getting upset over them refusing to sell you a gun...isn't worth the effort...it's a stores right...only thing you can do is to file a formal complaint with the city council and try to have their buisness liecence revoked...

Mac

[quickdtoo]

The FFL holder is just protecting himself by his actions, one of the questions on the 4473(#12a) asks if you are the actual buyer of the firearm....if the store owner knows that you aren't buying the firearm for yourself, he may choose to not sell it to you.

http://www.atf.gov/forms/4473/

[handirifle]

quick
Youy are right but this dealers problem was the law says you cannot buy a gun (direct family members ARE an exception, by the way) for someone other than yourself.  

Rednecks problem was he said anything at all.  If the dealer was sharp he would have noted redneck said sell the "barrel" that does NOT require an FFL to transfer, nor are there any restrictions inside the US.  It would have been totally legal for him to know redneck was selling the barrel.

Poor interpretation of the law.  If the dealer doesn't know the difference then too bad for him cause he will screw up somewhere else if he keep mis-interpreting the laws.

They are paranoid, but my local dealer is VERY sharp on the laws and has no problem in clarifying it with the written law if you question him.  He doesn't want to commit a crime or lose a sale.

Too bad for the dealers part.

Yes, I can buy a gun (declaring it so too) for my son, daughter, wife, not for a brother though.  This in the land of the truly paranoid, Kalifornia.

[44 Man]

Yes, but the ATF guys are always trying to trick dealers into something that they can pull their license for.  Instead of being out their actually trying to get guns off the street, they hassel good dealers over nit-pickey details.  He is just protecting his license.  He has no idea if you were ATF undercover or not, he's following the letter of the law as he has to.  44 Man

[redneckd1]

You guys are right, but that was my point. I know I cannot buy a gun for someone other than myself, but I was buying the gun for myself, just not the barrel. Which is completely legal.
If, I had not mentioned selling/trading the barrel, he would have sold me the gun.
I thought if I explained that I was keeping the frame(firearm), that he would sell it to me, but no. He is paranoid and will probably lose many sells if he doesn't understand the law he is simply trying to comply with.
Thx for the help,
R
 I just read the 'Important Notice' section in the sample form quickdtoo provided. This pawn shop guy is really misinterpreting the law here. I am the actual buyer (e.g. Buying the gun for myself with my own money) I can even buy the gun as a gift for a 3rd party, according to the example in the notice.  So this guy has no legal reason not to sell me the gun.
Am I missing something here?

[quickdtoo]

In the dealer's mind, he'd rather loose a sale or two than his source of income, and I have to agree, although it is unfortunate that he is somewhat ignorant of the ATF laws.

Handi, I figured that the immediate family member gift had to be legal, or there'd be a lot of fathers & husbands in jail! :-D

[Cottonwood]

You guys are right, but that was my point. I know I cannot buy a gun for someone other than myself, but I was buying the gun for myself, just not the barrel. Which is completely legal.
If, I had not mentioned selling/trading the barrel, he would have sold me the gun.
I thought if I explained that I was keeping the frame(firearm), that he would sell it to me, but no. He is paranoid and will probably lose many sells if he doesn't understand the law he is simply trying to comply with.
Thx for the help,
R
 I just read the 'Important Notice' section in the sample form quickdtoo provided. This pawn shop guy is really misinterpreting the law here. I am the actual buyer (e.g. Buying the gun for myself with my own money) I can even buy the gun as a gift for a 3rd party, according to the example in the notice.  So this guy has no legal reason not to sell me the gun.
Am I missing something here?

Yes unfortunetly you are missing the fact of a Straw buyer purshase

You are purchasing something that has a removable barrel, which with these rifles are the key componant of the firearm.  Just like a TC Contender barrel etc.... the seller IE shop owner suspects that you are purchasing this rifle for that reason of selling off the barrel to another can, and in this case halt the sale of this rifle, he can legally do so, and has.

On the Federal form 4473 there is a question wether you are purchasing for yourself or another.  If you are going to sell the most important part of this firearm off IE the barrel to another.  You then are in violation of that 4473 Form and could be charged if you check off that the purchase was for yourself and not another.

I myself would opt not to sell you the whole gun or in part because of this reason.  

If you had kept your mouth shut, no one would be the wiser.

The LAW is de law and he is not going to second guess its meaning for a sale to you.  

[Graybeard]

The portion with the serial number is the "most important" part of the firearm. It IS the firearm as far as federal law is concerned. Selling a barrel off these guns is perfectly legal. No doubt the dealer misunderstood or maybe he thought he was being tricked in some way. Matters not. It's his gun and if he don't want to sell it to any one given buyer that's still his right.

[Rustyinfla]

I'm not sure I blame the dealer. Given the deceptive scams that ATF has been known to pull he might have feared a "straw man purchase."

  As a former FFL holder I can tell you that it is one of the most often scams they pull.

   Rusty <><

[redneckd1]

Montanan, I disagree. He does not have a legal reason not to sell me the gun, because I am the actual buyer and nothing would be illegal about me checking yes in that block. I am not buying the firearm for someone else, I am buying it for me and if I sell/trade the stock or barrel makes no difference to the fact that I am the actual buyer of the firearm. So nothing illegal about what I was intending to do.  

Now, as Graybeard said, the store owners 'right' to refuse service to any customer, because he feels he is being tested by ATF or just is uncomfortable with the circumstances of the sell IS his prerogative.
My question was more of the legallity of it, not the owners choice to sell or not. He could have simply opted out of selling the rifle without telling me why if he wanted to.

And yes, if I had known any of this prior to walking in there, I would have kept my mouth shut. But I am a law abiding citizen and I was completely obeying the law with my actions AND intentions, so I didn't feel the need to kept my intentions secret.

Cheers,
R

[raynor]

The action, receiver, frame, or whatever is the part with the serial number and the only piece the ATF is concerned about. Barrels can be sold to anyone and used for anything, boat anchor if that's what the buyer wants it for. Barrel is of no more importance than a stock in that respect.

Anyway, every shop has their own way of thinking. If their not sure about something, best thing to do is not sell. Nothing can come back on the store owner if you put (yes) in the box stating your the actual buyer and the nics check is a proceed. If you put (no) in that box and he let it go, then he's got problems.

[Deadeye47]

No need to get upset about it....yet another stupid burocratic BS law.....Have a buddy or your spouse buy the gun and then do a private sale with the buddy.....do nothing if the wife buys it... :roll:

[Badnews Bob]

The point of not buying a gun for someone else is to keep you from buying because a person who cannot legally buy one ask you to, kinda like buying beer for a minor. How ever it is perfectly legal to buy a gun knowing you are gonna resell it otherwise every time you sell or trade a firearm you would have to fill out a yellow sheet, last time I checked you don't have to. FFLs do because they are in business, I'm not.

[jeff223]

redneckd1
if you really want the gun have someone else go in and buy it for you.

if it was me i would just let the guy keep it and maybe he can shove it where it sun dont shine   now that would be more like it :wink:

[Deadeye47]

The point of not buying a gun for someone else is to keep you from buying because a person who cannot legally buy one ask you to, kinda like buying beer for a minor. How ever it is perfectly legal to buy a gun knowing you are gonna resell it otherwise every time you sell or trade a firearm you would have to fill out a yellow sheet, last time I checked you don't have to. FFLs do because they are in business, I'm not.

Exactly.....But it's still B.S....To the criminal...what good in that law?? It doesn't keep guns out of the hands of those that don't deserve to have one....Criminals do no have any regard for the law what so ever(in case someone hasn't figured it out)....it's not even an inconvinience for them...they will get their gun no matter what.....with no waiting periods, no forms to fill out.... They will buy it black market or steal it from the guy that waited 5 days for a background check and filled out all the forms and dotted all the correct letters.....

[whitedogone]

Kind of OT but: If I buy a gun. I shoot it for a while and then decide it doesn't fit or don't like the way it shoots.  I can't sell it to someone else?

[quickdtoo]

Sure you can, to someone within your own state with no paper work, but to someone out of state, it must be done through an FFL.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1

[handirifle]

redneck
What you were doing WAS perfectly legal.

he's following the letter of the law as he has to.

He actually was not.  As GB pointed out the serial numberd component IS the GUN as far as ATF is concerned.

He was excersizing his right to refuse a sale but out of ignorance.  His loss.

A case in point.  When you buy a lower receiver assembly for an AR rifle, or a copy cat, THAT HAS to go through an FFL.  The upper receiver, barrel, trigger assembly, or ANY other component does not.

The upper receiver assembly contains the barrel.  Yes a very important part of the gun but you can collect a hundred barrels, but without a receiver you cannot shoot anything, that goes for an AR, NEF TC or otherwise.

If you buy a receiver for a Rem 700, it must go through an FFL.  Barrels can be bought from Midway.

That was MY point earlier, redneck was right in his thoughts, the dealer is ignorant of the law and WILL eventually make some serious error unless he decides to ACTUALLY learn the law.

It's just like driving. In CA you can make a U-turn at ANY intersection that is NOT MARKED with a "NO U-TURN" sign, but you cannot believe how many people will argue that point here.

[redneckd1]

Thx for all the replies guys, I may go back next week and try again, see if the guy remembers me, but this time I will keep my mouth shut!! If not, he can stick that 26" barrel in a very uncomfortable place!! Right Jeff223?
As far as getting someone else to go in and buy it for me, then I am breaking the law or at least asking someone else to do so for me (got rid of the wife a long time ago!!)
I would like to show the guy the error of his ways, I know he is just "gun shy" and beleives he is doing the right thing, but he is not. Yet, if I try that I'm certain not to get it!!
We'll see what happens, but again, this forum is great. If it was for GBO, I'd be angry and trying to find out if he was right, but through here I got all the answers in a matter of minutes!! What a world we live in!
Thx again,
R

[Mac11700]

Sure you can, to someone within your own state with no paper work, but to someone out of state, it must be done through an FFL.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1

Quick...what your saying isn't entirely correct...

(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]

A person may only buy a firearm within the person's own state, except that he or she may buy a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any state, .provided the sale complies with state laws applicable in the state of sale and the state where the purchaser resides.[18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]

According to this...if it is legal in your state to sell to a out of state resident...then you can...pistols and automatic weapons have to go thru a FFL...here in Missouri...the state law says...if it is a continginous state...meaning  borders touching....then you don't have to go thru a FFL holder to make a purchase or sale..

Mac

[quickdtoo]

Interstate transactions between non-FFL persons must be handled thru an FFL.....State laws can be more stringent that federal laws, but never supercede federal law....in essence out of state purchases must be done through an FFL, no ands, ifs or buts.... :wink:

B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]


A person may only buy a firearm within the person's own state, except that he or she may buy a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any state, provided the sale complies with state laws applicable in the state of sale and the state where the purchaser resides. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]

This to me mean the FFL is going to record the transaction on an ATF4473.

(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-state source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser's own state?


A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-state source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's state of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]

(B17) What recordkeeping procedures should be followed when two private individuals want to engage in a firearms transaction? [Back]

When a transaction takes place between private (unlicensed) persons who reside in the same State, the Gun Control Act (GCA) does not require any record keeping. As noted in FAQs B1 and B2, which are posted on this Web site in the "Firearms" section, a private person may sell a firearm to another private individual in his or her State of residence and, similarly, a private individual may buy a firearm from another private person who resides in the same State. It is not necessary for a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) to assist in the sale or transfer when the buyer and seller are "same-State" residents. Of course, the transferor/seller may not knowingly transfer a firearm to someone who falls within any of the categories of prohibited persons contained in the GCA. See 18 U.S. C. §§ 922(g) and (n). However, as stated above, there are no GCA-required records to be completed by either party to the transfer.

For information about any State or local regulations that may govern this type of transaction, it is advisable to contact State Police units or the office of your State Attorney General.

Please note that if a private person wants to obtain a gun from a private person who resides in another State, the gun will have to be shipped to an FFL in the buyer's State. The FFL will be responsible for record keeping. See FAQ B3 (Firearms).

[Badnews Bob]

I believe that only holds true if you are shipping the weapon to make the sale,If you are visiting a friend in another state and decide to buy a gun from him you do not have to record that sale.

[quickdtoo]

Interstate transfer(sale not transport or ship) of firearms is illegal without an FFL....PERIOD!!! Those that think it's okay are treading on thin ice and jeopardizing your firearms privleges.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/legal/interstate.htm

Legal > Interstate
The GCA makes it unlawful to engage in a firearms business without a license. 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(1), 923(a). Federal firearms licensees are generally prohibited from transferring firearms to persons who do not reside in the State where the licensee's premises are located. 18 U.S.C. 922(b)(3). Nonlicensees are generally prohibited from acquiring firearms outside their State of residence or transferring firearms to nonlicensees who reside out-of-State. 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5).

http://glocktalk.com/sitemap/topic/show/339582

http://chris.cc/interstate.htm

http://www.sportables.com/shop/batfrules.html

[MGMorden]

Yes, I can buy a gun (declaring it so too) for my son, daughter, wife, not for a brother though.  This in the land of the truly paranoid, Kalifornia.

Might be something about California in particular, but the Federal law doesn't prevent you from buying a gun (as a gift) for someone, so long as they can legally own the gun.  You just can't purchase it in their stead.  IE,  somebody can't hand you the money and you go purchase the rifle.  Then you're not the actual buyer of the firearm, but rather someone else is.  If you want to buy a rifle as a gift and give it away though, then that's perfectly legal, because you're still the actual buyer.  As has been said before though, it'd be somewhat hard to convince people that you'd be buying a gift for anyone other than an immediate family member.

I actually bought a Winchester 94 for my brother for Christmas and made my intentions completely known to the sales clerk whilst I was talking with them.  Didn't matter as I was still the one buying (fronting the cash) for the gun.


On the flip side, twice I've seen guys with out of state ID's try and let their wives (with in-state ID's) buy the gun after they were told they couldn't and the clerks have refused.

[GeorgeS3]

Not a highjack :oops: BUT!  A local pawn shop wants to be able to do OOS transfers. How does he find out the proper way to "fill in the blanks" in his record book? Thanx in advance---     George