Is there hope for my GI Colt?

[BIGGOME]

After years of concentrating on my various .357 Mags I decided I wanted to "become one" with a 1911 style pistol. Being a pretty serious bullet caster and reloader who is not fond of spending more time hunting brass than shooting I bought a little Star BM 9mm to shoot cheap factory ammo out of. Though the Star is OK, I felt the need to get real and work with a full sized 45. Not wanting to spend a mint on a 45 I looked at the most reasonable GI style Springfield and Rock Island offerings and then decided "what the hell, I'm just gonna wear out my old Colt".

I have a '43 vintage Colt mfg 1911 A1 that I inherited from my father, though I have shot it a bit my whole life I never had enough ammo for it to really shoot it enough, often enough to form an opinion about it other than it functioned flawlessly and I enjoyed it. I recently set up a Dillon 650 to provide more than enough ammo to keep it fed as well as collecting enough brass to be able to lose a bit and never notice it. A 6 cavity Lee 230 grain round nose tumble lube bullet mold rounded out the supply needs so it was now time see what she will do.

Eeeesh! Groups are at best what I would consider patterns, all over the paper at 25 yards. I know these old GI guns are kind of sloppy but mine doesn't seem all that loose (not much looser than the Rock Island I looked at) and it does still have a decent looking barrel and fair trigger :roll: . Yes the sights are poor at best but I hope to get better with them as I shoot it more. My question is "am I pissing in a fan?" I don't want to waste too much time and effort and never get anything close to reasonable (6" or so) 50 yard groups. What can be done to help it without changing the outward appearance. I would rather not change the barrel though I would like to fit a barrel bushing to the original. What about the "Group Gripper" devise that jams the barrel locking lugs up into the slide, does that help? All I have done to it is replace the recoil spring and add a shock buffer to keep from beating up the frame and it functions perfectly with wimpy (700 fps) target loads. Unfortunately I don't have a tight 45 to try some of my homebrew ammo in to see what it can do so I guess I will have to see what my last box of GI match ammo acts like.

Thanks in advance!
Paul

[Questor]

I could be totally wrong about this, so check with someone who has done it...

 In my opinion, it would probably be cheaper to buy a modern 1911 like the GI-style Springfield (around $600). It will certainly shoot better.

Slide work is pretty expensive and requires the labor of a skilled 1911 pistolsmith.  If the slide doesn't seem too loose (it probably is too loose), perhaps replacing the bushing will help. It will be a cheap experiment as bushings are inexpensive.

By the time you get the GI gun accurized and refinished you could have bought a new gun with modern materials and better fit and finish.

If it were me, I'd sell the older gun to someone who values it for collector value, then upgrade to a modern gun.

[Questor]

OK, I think I changed my mind. I'd check into this service:

http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/scdetail.htm

This service from Clark costs $300 and is worth investigating. It won't hurt to call them. $300 is a lot less than $600 for a new gun, and you'd preserve the sentimental value of the gun. You could also ask them about replacing the sights.  The accuracy they promise is better than you can expect from a new Springfield GI (which shoot 3" to 3.5" at 25yds.

[Mikey]

BIGGOME:  I have a gov't model 45 that patterned 7", 7" high and 7" to the left at 25 yds - notice I didn't say 'grouped'.  I droped in a Ed Brown drop in accuracy barrel for $185 and she now shoots under 2" at 25 yds, on the bull.  It took only one magazine of ball ammo (no target loads) to get it to print right after I put the barrel in.  HTH.  Mikey.

[Questor]

Mikey:

What did you do while shooting that magazine of ammo? Were you adjusting the sight for point of impact?  What's different about the drop in barrel that made such a big difference in your gun's accuracy?

Thanks for the info!!!

[rbwillnj]

If you have an original unmodified GI 45, I wouldn't change a thing.  It would hurt the value.  Buy a new Springfield or Kimber.

As I recall, I think the spec on a GI 45 was 4" Groups at 25 yards.  I may be wrong about that, but it was built for reliability and wasn't meant as a 50 yard weapon.  Of course even 6" groups at 50 yards could yield lethal results.

[unclenick]

Guys,  
 
I started shooting the 45 with a Colt series 70 Goldcup in the early 80's.  Out of the box, the Goldcup shot 5.5" at 25 yards off bags.    
 
I was fortunate enough to meet Russ Carniak at a gun show way back then, and through his feedback and advice from his years as a military armorer, learned how to match-accurize my own guns.  That first Goldcup took 100 hours, what with all the mistakes and over-trimmed sears and hammer hooks and other parts I went through in the learning process, but it paid off.  The first group of 5 rounds of Hornady 200 grain jacketed SWC's over 4.2 grains of Bullseye measured 0.37" C-T-C at 25 yards.  This was using sandbags and an Aimpoint sight.  I got so excited when I walked up to the target and saw this single ragged hole, I stopped paying attention and actually shot a staple into my own thumb putting the next target center up.  Always stop and take a deep breath.  Celebrate later.  
 
George Nonte pointed out years ago that, accuracy-wise, you have to divide the job into mechanical accuracy (what a machine rest would do) and practical accuracy (sights, trigger job, or other things that help the shooter's gun handling). Here's are my observations of the relative importance of different accurizing steps on group size:    
 
Mechanical Accuracy
 
Solid barrel lock-up in slide: 60%  (This does the most for barrel/sight relationship remaining consistent).
 
Tight fitting bushing: 10%  
 
Tight slide/frame fit: 10%  
 
Match barrel: 20%  
 
 
Practical Accuracy
 
Good Trigger: 45%  
 
Good Sights: 45%  
 
Grip related parts: 10%  
 
 
I've been to school at Gunsite and found a lowered thumb safety helps in that environment.  I also went back from a target shooter's straight mainspring housing to the original arched mainspring housing in that gun.  I found that helped funnel my hand into the right grip in making the presentation (draw).  What's on my list above applies to bullseye target shooting, which is what I first learned accuracy work for.  
 
The group gripper can help if your recoil spring is stiff enough.  For wadcutters we tend to want a weaker recoil spring for function, but those, in turn, often don't bear firmly enough on the group gripper to lock the barrel all the way up.  
 
As to accurizing the old Colt, I wouldn't do it.  The old GI slides were softer.  They tended to batter loose and need constant armorer attention in target shooting.  In particularly, the slide stop notch tends to get peened out with a lot of use, and the metal around it can crack.  The modern slides are spot hardened there.    
 
So, I would look the old war horse up in the Blue Book, and if I could get 80% of that value from a collector I would take it and put it toward something more modern.   The Kimbers give the best accuracy out of the box, being made to far tighter tolerances than the Colt's, but you will pay for that.  Also, to my finger the Kimber triggers are too soft and need a bit of work to really break cleanly.  Colt's can be accurized, as I did mine, but the series '80 firing pin block safety makes it more difficult to get a good trigger.  I designed a special jig that lets me do that, but it' not a beginner's task.  The Springfield armory GI gun is what I started with for the gun I took to Gunsite.  I would do it again.    
 
If you are going to send the gun to Clark or any other accuracy shop, get a used one with a beat-up finish and let the shop re-finish it as part of the package.  That will save money and, short of actual damage, new is irrelelvant on a gun that is going to have its rails hammer peened and maybe its slide bent and lapped.  Look for forged rather than a cast frame if you are going to have it accurized.  The exception would be a factory precision machined part, like a Caspian Arms match slide and frame.  
 
Good luck with the project.  As my own early experience tells, the potential accuracy of the 1911 design is terrific.  
 
Nick

[Mikey]

Questor - she just settled in.  First round out of the mag was about 6" high but dead center, and the rest just kept on dropping until the last couple centered the bull.  The next magazine gave me about a 2" group, dead on the bull with a 6 o'clock hold.  She just settled in.  HTH.  Mikey.

[Questor]

Thank you Mikey and Uncle Nick.

This makes taking in an old clunker a lot more interesting.

[BIGGOME]

I have looked at the new Springfields (they are sub $400.00 in my neck of the woods) and the like I and decided I wanted to shoot something other than what any other redneck could purchase any day of the week. I feel shooting  my GI Colt for fun is far more enjoyable than shooting any Kimber or mega-buck custom if I can get it to shoot with reasonable accuracy.

As stated in my original post, I inherited this gun from my father, it was a $17.50 NRA mail order piece as was my 4-groove 03-A3 and Rock-Ola Carbine. I have shot this gun (though very sparingly) since I was 8 years old (some 34 years) and selling it is not going to happen.It's value to me is far more than any "deep pocketed" collector. I don't want to change it's outward appearance (sights, finish, grips) because that's the way it has always been and that's the way it will stay. Accuracy is another story.

I don't think I'm asking for too much, 6"@ 50 yards is good enough for me to feel i'm not just wasting my time and I feel that tightening it up a bit and some serious practice with the no profile sights should get me there if my bulk produced reloads are anywhere near consistant which the chronograph says at least the speed is within 10 fps over the 20 rounds I checked.

I have an old NRA Gunsmithing Guide which goes through the accurizing process on an as issued Remington Rand 1911A1 (usually thought of as being the poorest of the GI guns). The results of an average of five ten shot groups from a machine rest @ 25 yards with full power 230 grain ammo are;

As issued: 5.66"
+Tightened barrel bushing; 4.14"
+Longer barrel link: 3.35"
+Tightened slide: 3.42"
+Lengthening the barrel hood: 2.05"
+Making the barrel lug arm cam lock the locking lugs: 1.11"  
 
It appears that tightening the rear of the barrel is really important. If I am able to acheive similar improvements by the use of a "Group Gripper" and a well fitted barrel bushing everything else will be up to me to acheive my modest goal. My main question was if the Group Gripper really does as good a job of locking up the rear of the barrel as they claim since I am not wanting to do the welding and grinding as was done in The NRA Gunsmithing Guide.

Paul

[Iowegan]

unclenick, Finally, someone with a good handle on accuracy! I have been building custom 1911s for many years and have come to similar conclusions.

Here's my opinion on what it takes to make a 1911 accurate:

Tight bushing to slide fit (bushing wrench required). Tight barrel to bushing fit. Tight barrel hood sides to breach fit. Proper hood length for precision headspace. Proper length barrel link for snug barrel to slide lock-up.

The slide-to-frame fit has very little influence on accuracy. I have tested guns with tight .001 slide clearance and compared them with a loose .020" slide clearance with no change in accuracy. This assumes the barrel-to-slide components are tight. The slide and barrel assembly works together as a unit. The only exception is where a scope or red dot is mounted on the frame. You need a very good slide-to-frame fit for repeatable zero.

The advantage in using a match grade barrel and bushing is because they come oversized so you can fit them precisely. The actual match bore has a token impact. There is no such thing as a "drop-in" match grade barrel or bushing.

Your "Practical Accuracy" components are well stated.  First the gun has to be built accurate, then the human interface issues apply. I get sick when I see all the emphasis placed on trigger pull when that is usually the least of the overall accuracy components.

[unclenick]

GB, thanks for the added comments.  The reason slide fit is usually least important is the round shape of the barrel and the recesses in the slide act to guide the barrel into the same relationship with the sights, regardless of starting point.  The reason anyone ever got the idea slide fit mattered much to accuracy was that a barrel not locking up, like Mikey's original, will find its way up a little farther into those guiding recesses after you lower the slide by peening down the rails.  Thus, the barrel and sights wedge a little better into alignment.  But only a little.  You only see this if you have the loose gun and do the slide fit first.  
 
If you are custom fitting lock-up, you can compensate for a loose slide.  If you do the slide fit after the barrel (which means you’ll have to re-work the barrel's link lug fit and maybe shorten the link) you won’t see much effect other than raising point of impact a little.  About as valuable as adding a recoil spring guide.  The main advantage to fitting a slide in an accuracy job is to be sure it doesn’t have room to cock or rub against the frame channel.  Any inconsistent friction when you are firing a light load (relative to the strength of the recoil spring employed) it can mean feed failures.  
 
Mikey’s original barrel clearly didn’t lock up much at all.  That’s why he was shooting high.  The replacement barrel has higher lugs and a longer link (probably at maximum specification), so it tips up higher at the rear in battery, thus lowering point of impact.
 
My dad bought a Dwyer Group Gripper twenty-five or thirty years ago, and found it didn’t help his factory Gold Cup much.  I tried it in mine before learning 1911 accuracy work, and it didn’t help that gun much either.  I think this is for two reasons: People using the Goldcup for lead wadcutters typically put 12 lb recoil springs in them.  (I forget whether the factory issued anything that light at the time?  I believe they did in the pre-Series ’70 “National Match” model.  Perhaps a Colt historian will volunteer to answer that?)  
 
The Group Gripper works by replacing the recoil spring guide with one that has a short leaf spring protruding from the back.  This compresses up against a tooth on the front of a special barrel link that comes with it.  That pushes the back end of the barrel up into the locking lugs of the slide.  Since this compression occurs as the gun enters battery, the recoil spring is doing the compressing.  
 
The other problem with the Group Gripper in the Goldcup was the collet style Goldcup bushing also applied some counter-pressure to barrel locked up.  Having to overcome both that and the Group Gripper’s spring was just too much for a 12 lb recoil spring.  You could push on the back of the slide after the gun went into battery and see it move forward.  
 
Anyway, Biggome, if you are prepared to stay with a 16 lb spring (get a new one for this project if yours has been sitting under compression in the assembled gun for years and years; or even go to an 18 lb spring) and to shoot only hardball level loads, the group gripper may work for you as intended.  Just keep in mind that like depending on a long-link to do this job, it still is only pushing the barrel up from a central point bearing upward against the middle of the link pin.  So it won’t mitigate canting the way having two fitted link lugs riding the assembly pin will do.  So keep your expectations modest.  The Dwyer Group Gripper has been around for decades without putting any accuracy shops out of business.  
 
If you feel knowledgeable enough to install a long link, it should do the same thing for a third the price.  You just have to be careful you don’t get it too long and have the barrel jamming into battery.  That can cause malfunctions, ejection failures, bend the assembly pin and/or widen the assembly pin holes in the frame.  A long link should be a thousandth or two short of dead lockup.  Also keep in mind you may have to file some metal off the back flats of the link lugs so the barrel goes all the way into counter-battery without interference when it is pivoting on the long link.  
 
If you enjoy tinkering with gun mechanisms, another possibility for you would be the Kart match barrel (you can always swap the original back in place for display).  The Kart barrel gets around having to weld and fit the link lugs by adding two protruding bridges across the rearmost locking lug slot.  You just gradually file these down until the assembled gun just snugs into battery without jamming.  This is a great project for sitting in front of the TV with a tray table workspace.  Just take your time (you can’t put the metal back as easily as you can file it off).  You’ll end up with a match fitted barrel that rides the assembly pin into battery, just as it should.
 
Fitting the barrel hood in the slide has always been part of barrel fitting to me.  I’ve never tried isolating it as a variable.  One advantage the Nowlin match barrels have is that, like a rifle, you don’t finish the chamber reaming before the hood is fit.  This lets you make the chamber just long enough so a GO gauge’s back edge is flush with the back edge of the hood.  Otherwise, seating your bullets out enough that the back of the case of a chambered round just comes flush with the back edge of a fitted hood will help accuracy measurably.
 
I have a friend with a Remington-Rand.  Cast frame.  We decided against messing with it.
 
Nick

[44 Man]

If you really want to shoot that Colt because of what it means to you, by all means, go ahead.  Definately replace the recoil spring with an 18# one.  I bought a Kimber that someone had put a soft spring in.  Shot poorly and was unrealiable.  Replaced the spring with an 18#.  Groups tightened and the gun became 100% realiable.  Might just as well replace the magazine springs while you are at it.  Modern springs can last indefinately but should be replaced occasionally.  I have six Wilson magazines that have been continuously loaded for over 15 years and still function perfectly.  If the spring does not help your groups, then have a barrel correctly fitted to the gun.  Might as well get a trigger job at the same time.  I would keep the outside of the gun as stock as possible.  You don't need all the fancy extended safetys, the stock one's work fine.  Same with beavertail grip safety, just make sure there are no sharp edges on the bottom of the stock one.  Soft slides?  Can't say there, but in any tests I've ever read about it seems to take well in excess of 50,000 to loosen up a GI .45 and double that to start breaking things.  I think I shoot a lot but I'll probably never shoot 20,000 rounds in my entire lifetime.  Shoot it, enjoy it and have fun.  Those guns will still stay on the kill zone of a man at well over 100 yds and you'd have a tought time in court justifing why you needed to shoot someone at that range.  44 Man

[BIGGOME]

Thanks for the input guys, though I will keep all in mind I don't think I will change my course of action untill the Group Gripper and tight barrel bushing fail to give the desired results. A recent trip to the range proved that with a little more practice with the really poor sights and a slightly different trigger finger placement, I actually printed groups instead of the previous patterns, though better, still far from my 6"@ 50 yard goal.

I certainly have no idea of how many rounds this old warhorse has fired. After purchasing it, my father bought 1000 rounds of regular GI ball ammo and 1000 rounds of GI match ammo. His reloading equipment was a Lyman 310 tool and I still have a few of the box of 500, 200 grain LSWC he had loaded as well as a box of each of the GI ammo so I know exactly how much he and I fired it over the last 40 years and it never received a new recoil spring over that time, never a malfunction either.

I don't know the rate of the recoil spring I put in it a couple of years ago but it was far stiffer than the one it replaced, it was listed as a stock replacement and between it and the shock buffer, brass was no longer mangled and thrown out in the parking lot with full power ammo. My current loading of 4.2 grains of Winchester Super Target under a 230 grain LRN is mild @ 700 fps but functions perfectly and the brass lands on the bench, on my head, or very close by so I would consider it to be about perfect for my application.

I feel my accuracy goal with this pistol to be a realistic one. My father shot matches with this pistol for a short time before I was born and received many awards though I cannot attribute them to the old Colt since he was also shooting a High Standard Supermatic in matches at the same time but I am sure he gave the Colt his "old college try".

 I have a Husquavarna M 1907 (1903 Browning pattern mfg. in 1919), originally chambered for 9x18 (9mm Browning Long) which was considered the most powerful round a straight blowback automatic could handle, when imported in the 50's the barrel was bushed to fire the shorter 380 ACP round. Though the workmanship is great, it is still a military pistol with poor sights and a bit of slop though not quite as much as my Colt. After a careful trimming of the recoil spring to reliablly function with 380 ammo and a bit of file work to the front sight it will print 6" groups @ 50 yards with either cheapo Wolf ammo or my super reduced 124 grain LRN reloads that gently lay the brass on the bench. Because of this, I don't feel I should have to accept anything less than 6" groups out of the old Colt with a bit of help though you guys haven't exactly gotten my hopes up!

Paul

[44 Man]

Try the group gripper.  The slide can rattle all over the place as long as the barrel stays in the same place in relation to the sights it will shoot good.  I expect any handgun I own to be able to pop a bunny in the head at 15 yds.  That usually equates to about 3" at 25 yds.  I hear some magazine testers saying a test pistol has 'Combat accuracy'.  What does that mean?  It will stay on a man at 7 yds?  A gun should deliver the kind of accuracy that YOU want for what you are using it for.  Most guns are more accurate that we shooters are, but if it is not providing what YOU need, then work on it or replace it.  In your case I would never get rid of a family owned gun.  Keep popping back on and let us know how the group gripper works out for you.  44 Man

[BIGGOME]

Will do 44 Man, I am going to a big gun show tomorrow morning in hopes of finding a Group gripper and over sized barrel bushing at less than mail order, there is usually a guy there with a lot of 1911 stuff for sale. As far as combat accuracy goes I am at a loss there, I have never been in combat and don't know if my shooting abilities would improve out of fear or fall into the "spray and pray" category. I have some guns which I am able to shoot quite well for one reason or another and others that are capable of the utmost accuracy that I am unable master. I recently felt the need to be able to shoot a 1911 well and decided it should be the one I have always shot if it can be made to do so since there is no guarantee that another one would shoot any better for ME. If my modifications fail and or it just proves to be a gun I can't seem to master I will just settle for what it delivers since it is all for fun anyway. I feel quite comfortable with my abilities with my SP 101 .357's (both short and shorter barrels) to know what to grab if I actually NEED a gun, all else is just "Let's see if I can hit that!" or some such other needless waste of time, effort and money in an attempt to impress myself.

Paul

[BIGGOME]

A new levergun and a factory replacement wheelgun have taken my attention away from "old slab sides" but not for long!

A Group Gripper and match barrel bushing should be here today or tomorrow so I will be giving them a try soon enough. Recent field testing of a friends new Kel Tec P-3AT has me wanting to shoot a REAL autoloading handgun in contrast to what I would consider to bit a bit less than the bare minimum.

I shall return!

Paul

[unclenick]

Do let us know what your experience is?  I am curious to learn whether you need to go to an 18 lb. spring to make the group gripper work well?
 
Nick

[S.S.]

I have read some interesting government documents
over the years and something that I really remember
was concerning the .45 ACP cartridge. As we all know,
The .45 acp was brought into military service because the
.38 long failed our troops so miserably against the Moro
warriors in the Phillipines. Well the document I read
was evidently from one of the commanding officers in the
Moro Insurrection, His request of the government was to
arm his troops with a handgun that will "FALTER A HORSE"
The .45 acp was what they gave him. Just an interesting sidenote
on our beloved .45.

[S.B.]

I'd probably go a little different route than most but, I'd leave the basic pistol without modifications. I'd change the barrel and bushing. And probable buy a new complete magazine. This way you can always put the original stuff back in without ever seeing a change. All that slop that you and others mention is why they are reliable in combat situations. I haven't seen a group gripper for some time, Gil Hebard used to sell these and basically they just changed where the firing pin hit the primer(if you move the back of the barrel up, the primer goes with it?)and where the shot hits the target(move the back of the barrel up and the shot goes down on the target). Never could equate how this improves accuracy? Go slow, don't be in a hurry or make more than one change at a time. Make sure the changes you make are going to work before go to another.

[BIGGOME]

GI Colt update:

It has taken a bit longer than planned but the desired parts were aquired and tested.

 I was able to find a barrel bushing that was a tight "drop in" (both O.D. and I.D.), I installed it without the reccomended .004" reduction of the barrel O.D. behind the muzzle to see if it would function without binding. Though it was extreemly tight as the slide moved to the rear and the barrel unlocks, it was able to function fine untill I attempted to fire 3 magazines full through it as rapidly as possible and it heated up and had a failure to feed on the nineteenth round. Slow fire groups improved somewhat but were still far from tight.

Installation of the "Group Gripper" was quick and easy. The first dozen or so times I cycled it by hand I began to wonder if the relatively new stock replacement recoil spring was going to be strong enough to make the little leaf spring in the end of the Group Gripper do it's job of forcing the locking lugs of the barrel up into the slide, it seemed like it would be just strong enough to lock up properly. It was now time to see if it would "run".

A trip to the range proved my efforts were not a waste time or money (not much of either anyway). I first set a bowling pin on the ground at the 25 yard mark, my fist round knocked it over and my second round kicked up dirt just in front of it, hey this seems better already! I then set up a target @ 25 yards and ran 8 rounds through it. Though below point of aim, there was a much improved 4" group centered under the bull. Hmmm, looks like my goal of 6"groups @ 50 yards might not be a dream after all!

The Group Gripper works, in my gun, period. It even eliminated the failure to feed when ran hot that the tight barrel bushing alone caused which was somewhat of a surprise to me. My next dilemma is what to do to raise the point of impact. The "already filed on" G.I. front sight would be little more than a bump on the slide if I filed it enough to compensate for raising of the rear of the barrel the tight lock up caused. Though I didn't want to change the outward appearance of an as issued gun I have been shooting for 35 years, it looks like I will have to change the sights which will most certainly improve groups quite a bit over the "poor at best" originals and should enable me to acheive my 6" @ 50 yard goal.

You can keep your Kimbers and spare the Springfields, I will continue to enjoy my 62 year old Colt, now even more, since with a little bit of work it has proven it will actually shoot!

Paul

[Mikey]

BIGGOME:  please check your loads before you go 'a-filin' on that front sight.  That was common practice in the old days when folks used the mil-spec sights to shoot target matches and used slow moving loads that needed a shorter front sight to hit higher.  Your 230 gn loads are moving at about 700'/sec from a pistol with sights regulated for the same bullet at 850-875'/sec.  You may want to try a different powder or load to bring your poi closer to your poa before you file again.  

BTW, the factory recoil rate of your spring is 16-18 lbs and replacements are available all the way up to 22 lbs.  HTH.  Mikey.

[BIGGOME]

Mikey:

The file work was done "way back when" and was needed to get it to print on the paper with GI ball and the original loose barrel link. I doubt there is enough left to offset the raised rear of the barrel now. My target loads were not too low until the Group Gripper was added, they work great and are really easy on the brass, gun and shooter. I have the ability to cast enough bullets and enough of the same powder to duplicate my load practically forever as long as wheelweights stay plentiful, I will probably never shoot any more full power loads through it again as I hate hunting brass everywhere and I don't feel the need for any more power to poke holes in paper. Slightly higher profile sights regulated to my target load should keep me happy from here on out.

Paul