Author Topic: 45gr. winchester white box .223 ammo wont groop worth a hoot (Read 980 times)

Hazard · « **on:** February 21, 2005, 12:01:27 PM »

well last week i decided it was time to sight in my .223 handi, i had boughten some winchester 55gr. soft points did my shooting at roughly 80 yrds no less than 75, and was shooting 3 shot groups first 2 shots either touched or almost touched, the 3rd strung exactly 1 in high of the others, i shot 4 chew cans with 3 shot groups and had the same results on them, but i ran out of bullets, and have read about the winchest white box 45 grs to be the choice store boughten ammo for the .223 handi so i bought a box, and i cant get them things to group tonight when i shot em, so now im getting very very mad, i was about to throw the handi in the creek, i was discusted, so i stormed into the house and pulled out some 55 gr. full metal jackets that my buddy gave me to sight in his .223 Remington 700 ADL, and thought well maybe the 55 gr will shoot bettter, so i shot them and the first 3 rounds i shot, the 1st and 2nd shot were beside each other under .5 in. and the 3rd went high lil over and inch, this made me feel better so i kept shooting and got better results from the FMJ's, than the 45 WW, but the FMJ's couldnt get any better than the first 3 and actually got worse, so my question is WHAT DO I DO, I LOVE THIS GUN BUT AS OF NOW I DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO, could someone please explain to me in detail****** how to correctly Sight in and clean your gun while doing so, because it seems when i kleen it i get diff results, somone PLEASE HELP ME IM GOING MAD OVER THE SITUATION, AT LEAST CALM ME DOWN BEFORE I DO SOMETHING DRASTIC!!!!

hazard

stiff neck · « **Reply #1 on:** February 21, 2005, 03:39:42 PM »

Sounds like you went thru a lot of rounds in one session. Are you letting the barrel cool suficiently? Pencil barrel or heavy barrel? Scope or iron sights? If it's scoped, are you sure it's not the scope or rings? How about the base? Did you remove it from the factory, clean the holes, and replace using locktight? Are you using a quality scope?

Ok, now for ammo. It seems that new handi barrels need a couple hundred rounds down range in order to achieve their best accuracy. 200 rounds is a lot, and you'll want to clean your bore a few times in the process. Ammo that worked well at first, may not work well once the barrel is "broken in". I'd try shooting the cheapest stuff you have to get the gun on paper etc. WWB FMJ is cheap and you won't waste good ammo on the break in.

Let the barrel cool between groups and shots. 5 quick shots is gonna heat your barrel a little. Back off and wait a few minutes between shots. And wait for a while between groups.

Hazard · « **Reply #2 on:** February 21, 2005, 05:43:13 PM »

I have a nikon 3-9x40 buckmasters scope with millet windage adjustable rings, im shooting 3 shot groups and waiting before i shoot the next group, i dont know what is going wrong, should i go back to the 55 gr soft points? and with the gun cleaning, like i said earlier, how, what is the proper way to do this break ins sighting /cleaning, im sure my nikon is a quality scope it should be., but i did not remove the factory base screws to check for tightness, could that be my prob?

Hazard (help me I love my handi)

fuzzy · « **Reply #3 on:** February 21, 2005, 06:06:30 PM »

:-) I`d start from square one. Take the scope rail off clean it good loc tite it on . you might whant to change ring`s. the ones you got are tricky to set up unless you have centering bar`s . Put it back together and go shoot the heck out of it. may want to read some of the thread`s about barrel break in good luck Rich

De41mag · « **Reply #4 on:** February 21, 2005, 06:47:39 PM »

Hazard;

Sounds like my rifle when I first got it. You need to float the barrel with an o-ring, then use J-B Bore paste about 100 strokes with at least 4 patches. Then, Smooth out the chamber with Flitz metal polish. Let the barrel foul after about 5 shots. Also make sure you clean the barrel REAL good before doing this. I found out the hard way and my groups did not get any better till after 400 rounds. That's before I tried all the above. These guys helped me get my rifle shooting the way I wanted it. I did all the above for a friend that just got a Ultra Varmit 3 weeks ago. Within 20 rounds his rifle was shooting 1 inch MOA. Needless to say I was jealous after his rifle started shooting those groups that soon. Please.... Don't give up, it will shoot if you follow the steps above.

Dennis

Jack Ryan · « **Reply #5 on:** February 21, 2005, 07:41:13 PM »

Sounds like a new rifle. Shot good at first and after a box or so of ammo it's not so good.

Clean it first thing, before you take anything apart. I had almost the same thing happen and I thought all kinds of stuff was going wrong.

I cleaned it. Did the bore polish thing and cleaned it again.

The next 5 shots were all dead in the bull again as good as ever if not better with no scope adjustments or anything.

New bores are a little "ruff" and foul quickly. Shooting "polishes" off the rough or Flitz on a bore snake will do the same very quickly. Once it is slick it will not foul. I've shot 40-50 more since then and still am hitting beaver heads over a hundred yards.

sbhooper · « **Reply #6 on:** February 22, 2005, 05:10:04 AM »

I think that it is your scope. I did the same thing with my Browning BLR .243. I shot gobs of ammo to confirm that it was the scope. I knew the rifle did not throw fliers. The scope was a Burris 4-14, so it was not a junk scope. Every company makes a few lemons. When I got the scope back from Burris, all was well again.

1dahunter · « **Reply #7 on:** February 22, 2005, 06:02:03 AM »

I have the same problem as you if you figure out whats going on let me know, Ive done everything mentioned here and still have the same problem. If I cant fix mine its going to be for sale! Thanks Jimmy

Hazard · « **Reply #8 on:** February 22, 2005, 01:59:33 PM »

ok well, i spent some time between school and work today cleaning it, all i have for cleaning is some rem bore brite, outers bore cleaner, and some rem oil, i took a .22 cal bronze brush wrapped a cleaning cloth around it tightly soaked with the outers and ran it through numerous times, them i ran just a cloth no brush through with outers on it a few times, then ran dry rags through it until it was clean and dry, i dont have this fancy polish and expensive gunk you experts buy off the internet, no pun intended, then i took the scope off, rings off, and rail off, cleaned the area and loc tited the screws and reinstalled, let dry, then i put my stupid rings on and very carefully centered them 1 by 1, reinstalled the scope, then i read a guy on this forum used a business card to float his barrell, and thats what ive been using, but i went to my place of work and brought home a few o rings and used the one that fit around the barrell stud snugly and reinstalled the stock, towards the front of the stock i cannot get a dollar bill to slide but its close, should i do a little light sanding of the whole inside of the stock??? and how does this barrell floating help accuracy, just wondering? When the weather clears up a bit, i plan to shoot it again. would it be best to not use my bipod when sighting in, cuz as u all know they arent that sturdy on the wood forearm? should i make some sandbags? Thanks for any input sorry for the long threads i feel terribly bad but i just wanna know some facts, thanks guys

Hazard

PS, what bullets should i try first, my 45gr White boxes or the 55gr winchester FMJ??? thanks

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** February 22, 2005, 02:40:35 PM »

Hazard, don't know what ya mean by expensive stuff bought on the internet, but if you are referring to polishing or cleaning the bore with JB Bore compound, you can also use Flitz, Maas, Simichrome or any of the fine metal polishes sold in your local hardware or variety and some super markets, will work fine and aren't expensive. :wink:

Hazard · « **Reply #10 on:** February 22, 2005, 02:58:57 PM »

So i can just buy pretty much any metal/chrome polish and it will have similiar results to the j-b stuff, will it help the gun, do i want a paste or liquid, how do i go about applying the stuff?

?

sorry bout having question after question, im new to rifles they are so different than my shotguns and .22 rimfire, maybe i can learn something from you guys thanks

Hazard

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** February 22, 2005, 03:34:15 PM »

I would stick with the metal polishes I listed if at all possible, they are very common. Follow the instructions posted by Varmint Al on his web site, the moly bullets are not necesssary.

http://www.varmintal.com/ashot.htm#Break

Hazard · « **Reply #12 on:** February 22, 2005, 04:02:18 PM »

thanks quick and everyone else who is helping me :-) Ill work with it some more, im just used to sighting things in for 10 min and being done and im finding that highpowers are different, so im just gonna shoot slowly see what i can do, there is just so many diff ways to clean the bore, one site said not to use any polishes, it makes a metal to metal contact or some crap idk, so many things to take in i dont know who or what to believe, i just want my rifle to shoot nicely for me, i think i might go down and clean the bore some more here tonight then maybe after school tommarow ill go to town and check for a metal polish, hopefully i dont mess anything up thats what im afraid of, im a big worry wort, sorry, for some reason i think im gonna screw the gun up, sorry for comming off as a hothead about this situation, thanks for the help, any other comments would be appreciated, thanks guys

Hazard

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** February 22, 2005, 07:23:16 PM »

While cleaning or polishing the bore, keep in mind 2 areas, the crown of the muzzle and the throat between the chamber and bore....a rod guide is essential to protect those spots from the cleaning rod. I use a brass or nylon guide that the rod slides thru on the handis, it's cone shaped and fits right in the chamber a little and centers the rod. Be careful on the other end when the rod/jag exits and is drawn back into the muzzle. Press the ejector/extractor in so it stays in to allow the guide to fit centered in the chamber.

http://kleenbore.bizland.com/store/product381.html

stiff neck · « **Reply #14 on:** February 23, 2005, 05:24:32 AM »

Quote

would it be best to not use my bipod when sighting in, cuz as u all know they arent that sturdy on the wood forearm? should i make some sandbags?

That may be your problem right there. Were you using a bi-pod when you were having problems? The Handi Rifle forearm as you know, attatches right onto the barrel. A forearm that is not free floated may have some accuracy issues because it's putting uneven pressure on the barrel and it interferes with the barrel's harmonics.

When you attatch a bi-pod to your Handi, you might be screwing things up even more. While you're shooting with an attatched bi-pod, you'ge going to be putting forces on the forearm from slightly leaning one way or another, forward or backward etc, and that's going to push on your non-free floated barrel. That affects where the bullet goes, even if it's just a little bit. Unless you do everything EXACTLY the same way EVERY shot, you're going to get fliers and sucky groups.

Just my opinion, I don't think a bi-pod is a good idea for Handi Rifles because of the way the forearm was designed. Other options? Use sand bags, or a bi-pod that is not attatched. Be consistant, don't change more than one variable at a time.

Here's what I use. I don't like attatched bi-pods anyways, they're heavy and awkward in the field. I built my own set of folding shooting sticks for use while shooting prone in the field or from a bench. The third leg makes it rock steady, yet it's fully adjustable for height etc. It folds up flat and fits into my daypack. Shown with my Marlin 17V.

Both sets of shooting sticks I made. The top pair is tall for sitting, the bottom pair is for prone or bench use.

Hazard · « **Reply #15 on:** February 23, 2005, 11:45:37 AM »

okay this is what i did, i cleaned the gun by putting a swab around a 22cal bristle soaked with outers bore cleaner (i also have rem bore brite, which one is better?) ran it through back and forth a few times, then i ran a outers soaked swab/patch down the bore a few times back and forth, then ran dry patches through until came out dry and clean, then i took a patch with a lil rem oil on it ran it through once and back, then ran a dry one through 1 time and back, o ya i also took off the scope rail, cleaned and loc tited the screws and such as said earlier in an above thread, also used a rubber o ring to free float the barrel and did a lil sanding, so i took it out and shot the 45 gr, Winchester white boxes and focused more on groups than sighting the scope in, i shot 15 shots 3 group shots at 100 yrds, waiting a minute between each shot and using some homade sand bags i made out of socks lol they work :grin: instead of the bipod (huge difference)my first group was all in a vertical line 1 bout center the other 3 in high and the other 3 in low approx., the next group was a 1 in triange, couldnt believe it, the next group same thing bout the same place, the next group i brought my scope over a few clicks to the right, and it shot 3 shots in a 1 in triangle very similar to the others, the next group, were scattered vertically again but not as bad as the 1st group, and i ran out of bullets, and for the heck of it i shot a group of 3 55 gr FMJ's and it shot bout 2 in triangle group, so do i clean the bore again the same way as mentioned above and get some more White box winchesters?

thanks
Hazard

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** February 23, 2005, 12:20:25 PM »

The WWB 45JHPs are unanimously accurate in the handis and the price is right, no reason to change unless you want to do more experimenting....I would recommend you try to keep your front bag just ahead of the trigger guard and not any farther ahead of the hinge than you can shoot comfortably. The closer the front rest is to the hinge, the less pressure is put on the barrel through the forend. Sounds like you've figured out what your rifle likes, hang in there, many here have put a LOT of time fine tuning them, listen to em. My recommendations are just an echo of what I've learned here....check out the recent thread by Borg1, it may be of help to ya... :wink: