Author Topic: NEED A DRAFT-PART II ????  (Read 1171 times)

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Offline williamlayton

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NEED A DRAFT-PART II ????
« on: December 14, 2004, 05:10:24 AM »
Well that was such a good thought lets not take away from part I, lets start another.
Universal draft--men equally as weomen or vice-versa.
Requirements--12 week of boot. No favors. No special PT.
12 weeks of boot to deployment as required for needs of the military.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline IntrepidWizard

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« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2004, 06:02:16 AM »
If you mean National then OK.16 weeks for Combat troops and 8 Basic and 4 special for others,all get two years and 6 in ready or inactive reserve minimum---males and females all just out of High school.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is
a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -- George Washington

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2004, 10:59:43 AM »
Well maybe not all--Just as many as the budget will allow for the numbers they need. Married, with children (not the TV show), Those in school. Just like days of old. National guards, ect.
Seems the old rules were ok. Too many friends looked forward to the time too say it was the wrong way.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline fe352v8

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NEED A DRAFT-PART II ????
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2004, 06:26:33 PM »
Lottery, the only one I ever "won", for national service or military.  As our society divides betweens haves and have nots, a draft would be a common shared experience and thus promote those shared values we here so much about.  One of my fellow inductees was named Firestone, a boy who's trust fund had more zeros than your social security number has numbers.  He probably learned more about real people from his Army time than some oil-rich kid did in his AA  program, heck he may have learned that those who work are more deserving of a tax break than those who inherit.  You think a draft is slavery take a look at self employment taxes, something you don't pay on unearned income, like dividends, rents, or trust payments.  Oh well you know the mottos:

E Pluribus Unum (out of many, one) no longer PC

In God We Trust (and by implication all others pay cash)

In youth duty was a pain, in middle age it was an honor.  To those leaders who had other priorities, ie Sec of Def and the VP, your current "service" is more akin to that provide in animal husbandry between a bull and a cow.

To those that serve, those that will, and those that have, God's speed to them and their families.

jon
life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

Offline Shorty

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« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2004, 01:43:37 PM »
One good thing about the days of the draft; it made young men HAVE to make decisions about their life.  They had choices that had to be made; have a family (married), go to college, or join up.  Simple, absolute choices.  Now-a-days the boys just drift, hang out, live with mom and dad, and never grow up!   :roll:

Offline magooch

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« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2004, 05:44:45 AM »
Quote from: Shorty
One good thing about the days of the draft; it made young men HAVE to make decisions about their life.  They had choices that had to be made; have a family (married), go to college, or join up.  Simple, absolute choices.  Now-a-days the boys just drift, hang out, live with mom and dad, and never grow up!   :roll:


Not to be disagreeable, Shorty, but one of the great things about freedom is that you are free to be a slug if you want.  I don't think it is the governments business to force kids to grow up; that's what parents are for.

The purpose of our military is for the defense of our country and our way of life.  I want our forces to be the best trained, best equipped, most professional force on the face of the earth.  That can not be accomplished by forcing the military to become a nanny.  

In all practicality, our armed forces are not large enough to accomodate all the utes (a little Vinny lingo there) that are emerging from childhood each year.  I would prefer only patriotic, smart, physically fit, motivated young men and maybe a few women join up.  And they need to go in with their eyes wide open, knowing what they are getting into.  Hopefully they will choose to stay for a while and maybe make a career out of it.
Swingem

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2004, 12:26:33 AM »
Magooch-
And we are talking about young folks of draft age, That was, if'n you remember, the purpose of the drafting process. It screened the hords and masses which came thru.
Them young folks is much like tha ones you and I, and I am countin I as you and you as I here, seen comin up. As a general rule I am thinkin tha vast majority of em have it it over us, far as technical teaching is concerned.
Heck fire they got to figger out some direction in their own life jest like we'un did. We all made some bad choices, which coulda been worse, tryin to get thru to tha other side.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline FWiedner

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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2004, 05:53:01 AM »
A draft or involuntary conscription seems inconsistent with the principles of liberty upon which this nation was founded.

Socially responsible people, male and female, will volunteer for service when the need arises or in the due course of time.

In my opinion, a draft, and the idea of instituting a program of involuntary conscription is what happens when bitter, evil, old men decide to start or support some trouble in a quest for questionable and/or limited profit for their own interests.

People who will not under any circumstance be placed in a position where harm might actually come to their person as a direct result of their actions are usually the ones who make the decision to resolve the conflict or accomplish a policy goal via killing innocent young boys by the truck-load.

They hide behind the blessings of the law to collar some stray pup from the street who's not going to school, or doesn't have a family to support, who's daddy doesn't donate money to the right people,  or who may be of a race currently regarded as expendable, and then tell him he's on "the list" of bodies that need to go fight for "Freedom".  Or he can go to jail.

The "Draft" is the government version of sanctioned kidnapping with involuntary servitude thrown in for good measure.  This is known as in many areas as slavery.

I've not yet known a young man who came out of the service alive and in one piece who did not in some way benefit from the discipline, training, and the enviroment in some beneficial way, but whether a young man is shaping up to your liking or not, selling a young American's life and liberty out from underneath him without his or her say-so is just wrong.
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2004, 12:01:16 AM »
FW-
I am not real certain you and I have not met before. Well that is a discussion for another time.
The only disagreement you and I have, it is a wide gulf and will never be bridged, is a philosophical difference.
You appear to trust the folks around you, IE this country and government. I guess I am just too cynical fer the general population. I question each and every motive our government makes. I do not always disagree with em, but I sure want em to be open an honest ( I laugh at myownself about that thought ). They are not and therefore I want some checks and balances.
I doan want em having complete control of a private army, to use and do with as they want, with them folks doing what they want without question and without any allegiance to the general population ( huff puff ).
I like the general population to have proper military training, therefore, the draft, well, er, boys, and girls also, to stay in the spirit of the topic.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Graybeard

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NEED A DRAFT-PART II ????
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2004, 01:48:06 AM »
Yup Will-um that's another one of those times me and you gonna hafta agree even tho we don't make a habit of it. Like you I just plain don't trust government. I want more checks and balances and for dang sure am very uncomfortable with this all volunteer professional standing army they've cooked up. Bothers me greatly. Especially taken in light of the direction the courts are headed and the way the democraps are heading with this one world government. I'd feel a whole heap better if most of the folks in uniform were draftees jist waiting for their time to end to go home again.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline bgjohn

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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2004, 02:28:12 AM »
Me too Greybeard, me too.
JM
I know nothing. I am only a messenger.

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2004, 07:37:48 AM »
This is gettin silly GB----let me try a little harder--Humm, well, er,OK--I doan like chocolate ice cream.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline IntrepidWizard

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« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2004, 07:48:34 AM »
A all Volunteer Army where ever it exists is a danger for a Coup,and a revolt .,the Draftee wants in and out and the Right to Bitch.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is
a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -- George Washington

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2004, 07:58:16 AM »
Privates have the inalienable, unpunishable, irritating, often questionable right to gripe---as do husbands---it gets neither a second thought.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline IntrepidWizard

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« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2004, 08:26:30 AM »
Boy you got that right Layton.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is
a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -- George Washington

Offline Graybeard

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« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2004, 10:35:19 AM »
Quote
This is gettin silly GB----let me try a little harder--Humm, well, er,OK--I doan like chocolate ice cream.
Blessings


You gonna hafta try harder than that. Neither do I like choccolate ice cream. But I shore do love black walnut and strawberry both.

Around here when we buy ice cream we hafta buy three boxes. Choccolate for Phil, Butter Pecan for Faye and either black walnut or strawberry for me. We each have our own half gallon and eat it at the rate we please.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline ShadowMover

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« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2004, 07:05:35 AM »
Here's another reason why not to institute a draft:
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42102

The next thing you know, Kofi Anon (sp?) will be sending the troops on some UN mission.  Please don't say "It doesn't work like that", as we all know that's exactly how all these 'far fetched' implementations of the law work after some NWO Federal Judge goes to work on the fine print.

Merry Christmas

Offline lostone1413

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« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2004, 12:58:14 PM »
I could never go along with a draft until are leaders are willing to seal are borders and get out of the UN. Don't think you will ever see that

Offline mjbgalt

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« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2004, 06:02:50 PM »
sealing our borders? you suppose you can get along without sako and winchester (some made in Belgium), sorel boots, tikka, most of our car parts, most of our clothes, most of our electronics?

hey here's an idea, lets find a less drastic approach.
I have it on good authority that the telepromter is writing a stern letter.

Offline ShadowMover

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« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2004, 08:46:51 PM »
What a concept: making our own cars, guns, steel, boots, televisions and computers. I don't know how we ever managed before we shipped all those factories to China and Taiwan. We had farmers who grew our food, we had construction workers who could build skyscrapers, houses and roads, we had teachers who could teach kids to read. We had borders that meant something, and kept the narco-gangsters on the other side, and didn't allow our biggest cities to turn into third world ghettos. If we have to seal the borders and round up all the invaders, I'll pay more for my car and my house, and my tomatoes. I'll volunteer to patrol the borders. What we need is some real political leadership, not the hand puppets we have now.

Offline lostone1413

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« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2004, 06:26:10 AM »
Like the way you think shadowmover. I for the life of me can't see how anyone can look at theirself as an American and not see anything wrong with are borders being open. Here in AZ any LEO i've talked to has said that at least 50% of their arrest are illegals. Wonder what we would do if any other county came to are country illegal in the numbers that they cross over to the South of us. I to would buy American I remember when almost all of what you bought here was made here. One thing I can tell you 98% of the ones I know in AZ that are against 200 and the borders being sealed are Mexican. The funny thing is allot of the Mexicans against it are citizens here. That tell you were their loyalty really is?????????

Offline mjbgalt

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« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2004, 04:49:59 PM »
well as long as youre willing to adjust other things along with your border sealing. keep in mind that the economics of scale move right along with you.

now youre paying $200 more for rifles and $50 more for your boots and you cars arent made as well...pretty soon you're wishing you could get em from somewhere else so you can afford to do something other than work overtime to pay for overpriced goods that are produced in a vacuum, with no competition and high wages and unions wanting even more money per hour.

remember when toyotta and mazda and such entered the mainstream? what happened the american engineering and pricing? cars got better and prices went down.
I have it on good authority that the telepromter is writing a stern letter.

Offline lostone1413

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« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2004, 07:43:10 PM »
You would be hard pressed to find any white people who live in AZ that aren't in favor of closing are borders. As long as were on the cost of things look at the drugs brought in then over 50% of the crime in AZ is illegals. Don't even want to get on the welfare and bilingual education. Any American who sees nothing wrong with open borders is in the wrong country

Offline mjbgalt

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« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2004, 08:41:00 PM »
i am referring to trade, not immigration. i thought that was what you were talking about to start with.

however, if you recall correctly, 100 percent of us wouldnt be here without immigrants so i guess we have to be careful how you handle the situation.
I have it on good authority that the telepromter is writing a stern letter.

Offline lostone1413

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« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2004, 06:08:24 AM »
So you really think American workers made out with NAFTA Guess your in the wrong country. As far as coming into the country the people from europe had a process they had to go through fore over a 100 years now. Only ones i've see in AZ that think like you are either here illegal theirself or all their friends are illegal or they are making money off the cheap labor

Offline FWiedner

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« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2004, 09:03:10 AM »
Seems like ya can't win for losin'.

Isolationist politics is what started and then got us pulled into both WWI and WWII.

Now that any Tom, Dieter, or Jose can come into the country, we didn't start WWIII, but we're sure givin' it the ol' college try to get there.
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline ShadowMover

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« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2005, 02:34:37 PM »
Quote from: FWiedner
Seems like ya can't win for losin'.

Isolationist politics is what started and then got us pulled into both WWI and WWII.

Now that any Tom, Dieter, or Jose can come into the country, we didn't start WWIII, but we're sure givin' it the ol' college try to get there.

On the contrary, not sticking to our isolationist policies is what got us into both world wars, and I'm not sure we got in on the right side in either case. Did you know that President Wilson threatened the French and British with coming into the war on the German side? Can you give me one reason why we were in WWI? Eventually the banks and financiers got us into the war to save their loans which they had out to the "allies". What a complete waste of money, and men. The cream of European civilization killed.  You need to do some more reading, not just listening to sound bites.
WWII may be a little more questionable, but there was no 'good guys' to join up with. Stalin, "Uncle Joe" to FDR, had already killed more people than Hitler did in the whole war, and was one of the main causes of the war when he and Hitler both invaded Poland.  Churchill wanted us in the war to bail out the Brits, and was conspiring with FDR to get us into a war.  Once the US was in a war against Japan, the Russians could safely pull their divisions from their Eastern borders and use them against Hitler. FDR knew what the Japs had planned, as spelled out in the book "Infamy".  Some newer books out have revealed we were reading the German and Jap code messages. ( "Venona Secrets") At the end of the war was any more of Europe free? NO! Poor Poland, the 'cause' of the war, was completely under Stalin's boot. Stupidity caused us to get into both World Wars, not isolationism. We don't seem to be any better informed now.

Offline FWiedner

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« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2005, 02:48:47 PM »
Quote from: ShadowMover
You need to do some more reading...


 :roll:

I don't believe I offered comment on whether or not the isolationist policies of our government were good or bad for the country, only that they were a factor that contributed to our involvement in either of those conflicts.

It might be worth your time to keep your insults to yourself unless you can read and actually understand what you are attempting to comment upon.
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline RaySendero

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« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2005, 03:58:39 PM »
Ok guys - Back to Subject!

Draft = Bad idea then!
Draft = Bad idea now!


Seems the pro-draft argument is for some kind of social tinkering of some sort!  Say that again "social tinkering" - Doesn't that begin to sound like liberal dumbcrap.

I've heard it said that the function of the military is to kill and break things that are try to kill you!  For this task I want that volunteer-warrior!  I know plenty of them and they are good at what whey do.  They will also tell ya that they don't want to trust their life on the person beside them that has little motivation or skill to fight!

PS: FW, Like your point on the draft and our country's principle of liberty :D
    Ray

Offline ShadowMover

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« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2005, 04:20:57 PM »
I'll agree the comment about doing more reading was uncalled for, and I'm sorry.
 :oops:

However, "Isolationist politics is what started and then got us pulled into both WWI and WWII."
That doesn't leave much doubt, that you think isolationism is bad, unless you think getting into wars is a good thing in general. Maybe you could explain how I got it wrong?
I'm not some 'peace at any price' type, but I think there has to be a legitimate national interest at stake, not some bank loan or rubber plantation.  FDR got elected on the promise to keep us out of WWII, and then did everything he could to get us into it. Wilson was genuinely  against the war, and was forced into it, against his better judgment.
http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1914/wilsonneut.html
His plans for peace were quickly trashed by the Brits and the French, leading directly to WWII.  Which they started by declaring war on Germany.  Somehow old "Uncle Joe" Stalin, was not bad enough to need attacking, even though his hands were just as far into Poland's cookie jar.
This is getting pretty long, but I'd love to discuss how intelligently minding our own business, isolationism, is going to get us into a war.