Author Topic: Electric Ignition (Read 1678 times)

Evil Dog · « **on:** February 28, 2005, 04:58:48 PM »

Found out that come next month some local newspaper folk will be coming out to our club shoot to do a little spread on us. No doubt a picture of the cannon firing will be on their list. Don't have a percussion firing device and really don't care to put one on my half scale Napoleon. I've always fired it by cutting aprox 4" of fuze.... takes more or less 10 seconds.

For photographs though, a more exact firing would be a really good idea. Will be getting a dozen electric model rocket motor igniters from a local hobby shop. That and a 9 volt battery should cause the cannon to go off exactly when wanted..... 3 - 2 - 1 - BOOM !!!

Will have a much better idea of how well it will work (or won't work) when they arrive. Any of you ever tried this?

Powder keg · « **Reply #1 on:** February 28, 2005, 05:06:01 PM »

Hello Evil Dog,
I have a friend who lights his cannon this way. I've never seen him do it though.

GGaskill · « **Reply #2 on:** February 28, 2005, 08:23:50 PM »

and it works fine. There is perhaps a one second delay but much more control than with fuse (not enough time for some fool to run out in front to get a better picture.) Only issues are the expense of the rocket ignitors and the difficulty of getting them. I use a 6 volt lantern battery and about 30' of 16 gauge zip cord to fire mine. Lots of current reserve. If you don't want to spring for the expense (lantern batteries are expensive), you could use 4 standard 1.5 volt cells. The standard firing device for model rockets uses four AA cells to light the ignitors. I like a little more reserve than that.

It is possible to make your own ignitors from some 18 gauge solid wire and some 30 gauge wire. The 30 gauge wire will glow red when attached to the battery and ignite the powder. Homemade ignitors usually will work for more than one firing, contrary to the rocket ignitors.

I may be paranoid but be suspicious of the newspaper people. See if you can find other material from them to see if they have a different agenda than yours.

jeeper1 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 01, 2005, 05:15:04 AM »

United Nuclear sells Nichrome wire 10 feet for $3 specifically for igniting fuses and powder.

SLEEPY BEEPER · « **Reply #4 on:** March 01, 2005, 07:18:18 AM »

A small piece of steel wool between two copper wires works well. Strip the insolation off the ends of two copper wires. Put a piece of steel wool between them (make sure the copper wires don't touch). Sprinkle in a little black powder. Wrap with masking tape but leave the end open. If you do it right, it should slide in the vent hole. Doesn't take much to set it off. Couple D-cells.

Articifer Tom · « **Reply #5 on:** March 01, 2005, 08:54:07 AM »

Whats wrong with friction primers or firing by linstock ?

Evil Dog · « **Reply #6 on:** March 01, 2005, 09:01:18 AM »

Don't have any friction primers. Firing via linstock is an option though. The main idea is for the photo guy to know exactly when to trip his shutter.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #7 on:** March 01, 2005, 02:44:27 PM »

Quote from: Evil Dog

Don't have any friction primers. Firing via linstock is an option though. The main idea is for the photo guy to know exactly when to trip his shutter.

Tripping the shutter is largly a matter of experience - as you know you can get GOOD at getting good exposures if you can keep you cool at the moment of ignition.

Electornic ignition does lend itself to synchronizing the shutter and the ingition, but that would take some experimentation.

I don't know, because I've heard NOTHING, regarding the issue of whether or not it is legal or illegal to use with legal real or replica cannons/mortars and/or blank firing devices.

Fred · « **Reply #8 on:** March 02, 2005, 03:27:44 PM »

Before I "got" my picture took using electronic ignaition on a BP cannon I would check to make sure it was legal. Seems to me that somewhere, sometime ago this topic was broached and general consensus was that it was not legal. I thought a long time ago it was discussed on this froum, or perhaps it was on one of the Civil War sites having a discusion on cannons.

Touch linstock to 4f in the vent hole and the cannon will go off instancely.

FRED.............

Cannonmaker · « **Reply #9 on:** March 02, 2005, 03:51:32 PM »

When photographing my Cannon's firing and trying to capture the muzzle flash, i use time exposure. This takes some practice, too slow blurs the cannon as it recoils. Do this at dusk and a slower film as not to over expose the picture.

Double D · « **Reply #10 on:** March 02, 2005, 05:19:59 PM »

Strict electric ignition as used on modern fixed ammunition would be illegal without a Destructive Device permit/license. Using Electric spark to ignite a fuse/fuse train would not. My guess is with just a little research you would find a primitive form of electric ignition pre 1899. Seems to me I've read something about some of the disappearing guns being fired that way.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #11 on:** March 03, 2005, 12:38:07 AM »

Quote from: Double D

Strict electric ignition as used on modern fixed ammunition would be illegal without a Destructive Device permit/license. Using Electric spark to ignite a fuse/fuse train would not. My guess is with just a little research you would find a primitive form of electric ignition pre 1899. Seems to me I've read something about some of the disappearing guns being fired that way.

That was exactly the issue I was concerned about, but I had NO inkling of whether or not something pre '99 existed. Good hint. I think several of us should dig deep. Ignorance of the law is a factor on all sides and knowledge precludes trouble.

Thanks, DD. I was playing the cautious role on this one.

Blaster · « **Reply #12 on:** March 03, 2005, 11:32:14 AM »

I believe firing a BP cannon/mortar with an electronic igniting device is most likely perfectly legal. If anyone has a catalog from South Bend Replicas, they will find that the President of that company, Paul Barnett has for many years, been firing his via electronics. And if I recall correctly, he even mentioned how to accomplish this and once even suggested using one method utilizing tiny photo flashbulbs. He fires various cannon at musical events such as when the 1812 Overture is played at civic events where absolute perfect timing is required. If anyone is really curious about his experience with the legality, they may want to give him a phone call, although his opinion probably shouldn't be considered as 100% accurate legal advice. His firm is listed in our Suppliers Guide and he has been fabricating and selling his reproductions for a least 30 years so I personally can only presume he knows what he is talking about regarding the legal stuff.
Also, South Bend Replicas does sell the highly recommended book, "The More Complete Cannoneer"....

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #13 on:** March 03, 2005, 03:55:04 PM »

It has been an intersting search thus far.

In the 1860's in the development of the internal combustion engine, gunpowder was used (and several other materials) and with liquid fuels so was electric ignition.

http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/engines-group/ottolang.htm

I think is more than just highly llikely that electric ignition was done in the mid to late 1800's, now to just find a reference to it.

savageT · « **Reply #14 on:** March 03, 2005, 04:07:29 PM »

Speaking of sparkplug ignitiion, why not? The hardest part is drilling and tapping a sparkplug hole. Seems easy to rig up a 6 or 12 volt coil to a sparkplug and power it with a battery?

??

Jim

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #15 on:** March 03, 2005, 05:05:07 PM »

I would think it would be a pain to clean - but easy to just replace.

Found some references - first electric (arc) light in 1847 and use of electric ignition for mines in 1850. Getting closer.

(I have two '99s - .300 and .308 - would love to have one in .358)

CAV Trooper · « **Reply #16 on:** March 04, 2005, 03:10:16 AM »

The 1812 overture was originally written with the cannons being fired electrically. That was the only way to get the exact timing needed with the music score. Firing by fuse, linstock, friction primer or cap wasn't exact enough.

I may have missed it but, so far, I haven't been able to find anything in the BTAF regs that state how a cannon has to be fired. As long as it uses BP and loads from the front, the actual method of firing seems to be wide open. Like blaster said, check with Paul at SBR. He's been shooting 16 guns per performance for years.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #17 on:** March 04, 2005, 12:07:35 PM »

Quote from: CAV Trooper

The 1812 overture was originally written with the cannons being fired electrically. That was the only way to get the exact timing needed with the music score. Firing by fuse, linstock, friction primer or cap wasn't exact enough.

I may have missed it but, so far, I haven't been able to find anything in the BTAF regs that state how a cannon has to be fired. As long as it uses BP and loads from the front, the actual method of firing seems to be wide open. Like blaster said, check with Paul at SBR. He's been shooting 16 guns per performance for years.

I'm still playing the cautious role, looking for an authoritative original reference to it's early use. While there are many that are and have used it doesn't make it legal - as is evidenced by the folks that have been convicted for posessing the WWI/Stokes style muzzle loading mortars and the number of websites currently marketing them.

There are two points of the law that are of concern - one involves the use in replica or original cannon/mortars and the other relating to what qualifies as a DD.

I'm sure that for most folks it's ok, considering the foregoing discussions, but I'm choosing to err on the side of caution as the consequences are in terms of years and tens of thousands of dollars.

I have been at performances of the 1812 overture where 105mm howitzers were used - with lanyards. Timing was an issue, but mostly because of practice (or the lack thereof).

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #18 on:** March 04, 2005, 02:07:11 PM »

Finally!!

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/3337/hotg/Guns/firing.htm

"Electric Tubes
In 1862 Sir Frederick Abel invented an electric tube for use in coast artillery. Approved for issue in 1866 it was known as 'tube electric high tension' and worked on the same principle as the modern spark plug. Ignition was by spark via a gap between two wires buried in a special priming composition, not by an incandescent wire bridge. Power came from a portable generator. "

Although a secondary reference, enough material to dig deeper. Name & date.

Articifer Tom · « **Reply #19 on:** March 04, 2005, 02:14:49 PM »

don't think the ignition method matters. You are not firing a cannon [as a weapon] but a blank signal or salute . That being said Im willing to donate fricition primers to the cause and a few to practice , when lanyards kept tight and slow exposer about .5 to 1 sec . you'll get a nice shot.

CAV Trooper · « **Reply #20 on:** March 04, 2005, 05:58:53 PM »

Quote

I'm still playing the cautious role, looking for an authoritative original reference to it's early use.

Cat,

I have no problem being cautious but I've been going by information that I've read. If you happen to have a SBR catalog, check the back pages where there are several newspaper clippings regarding the 1812 Overture being fired by Paul Barnett. Two are from "Gun Week" (8/25/72 and 10/7/77) which both state that during the performance, 16 Lyle guns are "fired electrically in accordance with Tchaikovasky's 1880 specifications". A third is from "Black Powder Times" (10/80) and says, regarding the 16 electrically fired cannon shots: "Tchaikovasky's original intent was to have a switch box available to the conductor in the interest of precision." A second article from the same publication (10/81) also discusses this and there are many other clippings from a number of sources.

The 1972 "Gun Week" article also mentions that the ATF issued a ruling that under the Organized Crime Control Act of 1970, 1812 performances could continue by having program sponsors purchase BP locally and give it to the Indiana participants (SBR) in 5 pound increments at the time of the show. This would avoid the felony charge for interstate transportation of more than 5 pounds (ie: if SBR brought their own powder with them they would have been in violation). (Of course, the law regarding BP was subsequently changed with no small amount of assistance from SBR.)

From reading those articles, there's no doubt that the BATF was, and is, aware that muzzle loading BP cannons are being fired electrically on a regular basis. If there was a problem with it, there is no doubt that they would have done something about it by now.

The web site you found also confirms that electric ignition of BP cannons has been done since at least the Civil War. Charge up those batteries and go for the gusto!! :grin:

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #21 on:** March 05, 2005, 12:32:53 AM »

Cav Trooper -

Great documentation! My caution stems partially from my intent to use (if it works out) a surplus 10 cap blasting machine to fire the mortars. Folks jump to conclusions too quickly as it is, and KNOWING specific facts, history and law is my way of overcoming the fear of "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

Thanks for your reseach efforts!

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #22 on:** March 05, 2005, 12:39:24 AM »

Quote from: CAV Trooper

... several newspaper clippings regarding the 1812 Overture being fired by Paul Barnett. Two are from "Gun Week" (8/25/72 and 10/7/77) which both state that during the performance, 16 Lyle guns are "fired electrically in accordance with Tchaikovasky's 1880 specifications". A third is from "Black Powder Times" (10/80) and says, regarding the 16 electrically fired cannon shots: "Tchaikovasky's original intent was to have a switch box available to the conductor in the interest of precision." ...

WOW - now I can go to the range for MUSIC PRACTICE!!!

Hmmm Cannon master of the Greater Pulaski Fiddle, Jug and Cannon Orchestra.

CAV Trooper · « **Reply #23 on:** March 07, 2005, 12:10:36 PM »

Quote

WOW - now I can go to the range for MUSIC PRACTICE!!!

That's about as good a reason as any to go out and burn BP. :grin: Can you imagine the orchestra we could all put together? Don't know about the tenor or soprano sections but the bass percussion section will be AWESOME!!! :-D

Evil Dog · « **Reply #24 on:** March 08, 2005, 03:49:57 AM »

Stumbled upon this reference while looking for information on priming quills.

In 1862 Sir Frederick Abel invented an electric tube for use in coast artillery. Approved for issue in 1866 it was known as 'tube electric high tension' and worked on the same principle as the modern spark plug. Ignition was by spark via a gap between two wires buried in a special priming composition, not by an incandescent wire bridge. Power came from a portable generator.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/3337/hotg/Guns/firing.htm

Will Bison · « **Reply #25 on:** March 09, 2005, 06:07:44 AM »

I've had very good luck with flashbulbs for precise timing of explosive devices. The problem now is finding flashbulbs. I have to buy mine from a specialty camera store.

For what it might be worth, I initiate the sequence with the camera. My auto-wind fires at seven frames per second. The first frame fires the flashbulb and I hold the shutter release down 'till the smoke clears.