Author Topic: Winchester contra Marlin (Read 1977 times)

gringo · « **on:** February 14, 2003, 12:04:36 PM »

what is the most popular leveraction of winchester and marlin in USA, and why? Are one of them better in mecanical function, precision, quality?

Deer hunter from norway(with the only leveraction at theese parts of Noway)

Regards from Gringo in Norway!

John Traveler · « **Reply #1 on:** February 14, 2003, 12:20:41 PM »

The Winchester versus Marlin controversy is long and detailed, but here is a summary:

Winchester Pros and Cons:
1. M1894 is the best selling lever action rifle ever made. Some 4 million of them in the last 109 years. A well established, reliable, popular saddle carbine/rifle design.

2. M1894 orginally designed for .30-30 length rifle cartridges. It was recently adapted for .44 Magnum/.45 Colt pistol cartridges. The lever throw is unnecessarily long for that reason.

3. Some users had problems with quality control, finish, and wood stocks. Some parts are stamped steel. Pre-1964 guns are collectors items.

Marlin Pros and Cons:
1. Popularity and established designs rival competition, but generally have cost more than comparable Winchester models. Many models use the proprietary "MicroGroove" rifling.

2. M1894 carbine and M1895 rifle actions purposed-designed for pistol and rifle cartridges, respectively. Short, precise lever throw.

3. All forged, machined steel parts and American walnut stocks. Classic blued steel and walnut construction.

4. Consistently good quality control and finish.

Both manufacturers produce .22 LR versions and both sell very well.

Most Cowboy Action shooters seem to prefer the Marlins for lever action rifle events.

You takes your choice and enjoy it!

gringo · « **Reply #2 on:** February 14, 2003, 02:23:04 PM »

Thanks for a good summary.

I have a Winchester 94AE 30-30. It was manufactured in the early 1990s.
Are there any proven hangups/bad quality failures with this model, it is the model without the ugly crossover safety.

Mostly i hunt foxes with "winnie" and im very satisfied with it. It is a easy carrying gun when i do works on my fathers farm, and a quick gun to reach if a fox passes by(they often do when we repair fences etc.)

Gringo

STW · « **Reply #3 on:** February 16, 2003, 04:54:20 PM »

Don't know how this would affect someone growing up in Norway, but in America the Winchester m94 and Marlin leverguns were imprinted on young peoples' minds as the rifle/carbine of the American West, the the traditional American hunting/fighting tool--a fundamental American symbol with everybody whether they shoot or not. In fact that's one advantage of these rifles--that they may be the only gun that non-shooting people tend to have a warm feeling for and don't get as nervous around like they would with a long black FAL.

My recollection from Western films and TV is that the leverguns I was seeing were always Winchesters, and the Rifleman's (TV show) rifle was always specifically referred to as a Winchester (model 92?). So I think the Winchesters are more familiar as the western rifle even though Marlin leverguns are just as old and (I'm told) just as widely used on the frontier.

I mention this only because I think the choice of m94 and Marlins leverguns is made partly on familiarity and tradition and appreciation for an icon (not that they aren't also reliable, compact, effective, excellent rifles too). So, often people prefer Winchester vs. Marlin based on the familiar little details. For example, the little tab on the rear of the Marlin lever looks wrong to me and the lever is too square. The Marlin lever hinge bolt is in the tab that extends from the receiver which also looks wong. Also, the barrel extends an inch further than the magazine tube which also looks wrong.

These are the kind of things that, for me, made Marlin look wrong compared to the Winchester when I was younger (and my pre-64 m94 seem exactly right). Since then I've learned to appreciate the excellence of the Marlin leverguns, and now I like the Marlin details. My next purchase will be a short barrelled Marlin .45/70 Guide Gun, which I expect to carry instead of my .30-30 in almost every situation (even though the .30-30 works every time too).

I realize the look and fit details I've mentioned are superficial and a serious shooter shouldn't make a decision based on them--but these lever guns are veritable icons and their details mean a lot to people, and those details may often be the reason for choosing one or the other.

A less superficial detail:
The older m94s eject straight up which was never scope friendly and the fact that people mounted scopes to angled to the side on m94s shows just how much they valued the Winchesters. The Marlins have always had a side ejection port and tapped receiver screws on top and have always been more scope friendly--even considering Winchester's later angle/side eject that still ejects from the top.

Dutch4122 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 17, 2003, 04:18:26 AM »

STW-

Very well said! In my humble opinion there are very few hunting situations out there where an accurate Levergun in an appropriate caliber for the game intended would not do as well as a scoped bolt action rifle.

gringo · « **Reply #5 on:** February 17, 2003, 05:46:51 AM »

Hello STW and DUTCH

Im one of the few Norwegians that grew up with storys of Wild Bill Hickock
Hopalong Cassidy, Wyatt Virgil and Morgan Earp and Buffalo Bill, Bat Masterson, Billy The Kid and Pat Garret, Davy Crocket and etc...etc...
That is the main reason that i bought the 94. It was my first rifle. I also have a Vaquero 44mag and a single six 22lr/22mag and they were also bought because of the old west romantic. Not because of the battles of the old west but because of the dream of beeing a totally free man without the modern rush for status, jobs and money, just a man his rifle and his hunting for what he needed. This is my favourite rifle in the woods. In more open country i prefer my SAUER 202 6.5*55mm with a Zwarowsky 3-12+56 scope which is also exellent for the Norwegian deer and competitionshooting.

I have not tried a peep sight on my 94, is this something worth spending money on?
Gringo

Venator · « **Reply #6 on:** February 17, 2003, 01:17:58 PM »

Gringo, how do you like the recoil from your .44 Mag Vaquero? I just got one, and love it. It does kick a bit though.

I have owned both (pre-64) Win 94s and Marlins. To me, the Wins look very slightly more 'Old West' than the Marlins, but I hear that the Marlins have stronger actions. When I was a kid, most people in Texas carried Winchesters. That has changed a little, but so has Texas!

gringo · « **Reply #7 on:** February 19, 2003, 11:16:07 AM »

Greetings from Norway to Venator.

I think the recoil from the 44. mag vaquero is ok compared to per example the ruger redhawk with the same barrel length, maybe even better to shoot with heavy loads. My reason for saying that is the vaqueros short height from the barrel senterline to the grip senter. I prefer guns that punch more backwards than high barrel lifters. The bisleygrip i believe is even better but i went for the traditional grip.(cowboy romantic reasons)

Gringo

Venator · « **Reply #8 on:** February 19, 2003, 05:41:06 PM »

Gringo, I agree with you on the traditional plough handle for the Vaquero. If it was good enough for John Wesley Hardin, it's good enough for me! Besides, the Bisley looks like someone dropped the gun and bent the handle! Happy shootin' from Texas!

Wijbrandus · « **Reply #9 on:** February 19, 2003, 05:50:53 PM »

Guess I'll be the sole dissenter.

I have a Marlin 1895, the cowboy model, and I love it. Very nice lines, long octagonal barrel, and holds 10 rounds of .45-70 that'll go as hot as you can stand. With factory loads, and no recoil pad, I'm one content shooter.

Winchesters are nice, and well-known guns, but I like the big lead.

~Robert

gringo · « **Reply #10 on:** February 20, 2003, 05:45:18 AM »

Hey marlin man.

Marlin 1895 Cowboy is in my opinion the best looking Marlin ever made.
I like big bullets to, but the 30-30 is good enough for my use of a leveraction. After some hunting in my district you would understand why a 30-30 is "heavy enough"

Regards from Gringo

EDG · « **Reply #11 on:** February 20, 2003, 03:25:40 PM »

The Marlins have 3 distinct advantages for me.
1. Most are adaptable to scope mounting if necessary.
2. They are smoother to operate.
3. And best of all, you can pull the bolt out to clean them.

Based on a appearance the Winchester 55 (I think this is the correct number) is the best looking of the 94 type lever actions. Half magazine, long barrel and pistol grip looks like a hunting rifle.
Based on what I can afford I like the pistol grip Marlins, especially the older long barreled rifle with Ballard rifling and 1/2 magazine in .35 Remington.
By the way the 94 Winchester and similar Marlins were too late for most of the taming of the American West.

Ed

Hud · « **Reply #12 on:** February 20, 2003, 03:57:49 PM »

I grew up with Marlin and Savage leverguns. Both are fine rifles and I really like them. Both are stronger than the Winchester, but there is something about a Model 94 Winchester that just feels "right" when pulling it out of a scabbard while sitting horseback. Can't wait to get one in the 480 R caliber.
Hud

EDG · « **Reply #13 on:** February 20, 2003, 07:12:46 PM »

>>>I grew up with Marlin and Savage leverguns. Both are fine rifles and I really like them. Both are stronger than the Winchester, but there is something about a Model 94 Winchester that just feels "right" when pulling it out of a scabbard while sitting horseback.<<<

Handling a rifle while sitting on the nags I grew up around was dangerous.
I would admit that pulling any rifle out of a scabbard felt good around those horses, especially if I was on the ground. The only thing that ever tried to kill me was a horse.
Ed[/quote]

STW · « **Reply #14 on:** February 21, 2003, 05:15:04 AM »

Quote from: EDG

The Marlins have 3 distinct advantages for me.
1. Most are adaptable to scope mounting if necessary.
2. They are smoother to operate.
3. And best of all, you can pull the bolt out to clean them.

Based on a appearance the Winchester 55 (I think this is the correct number) is the best looking of the 94 type lever actions. Half magazine, long barrel and pistol grip looks like a hunting rifle.

By the way the 94 Winchester and similar Marlins were too late for most of the taming of the American West.

Ed

Do you have a picture of a model 55 you could post? I prefer the look of the full length mag tube whatever the barrel length and straight stock, but I'm broadening my interests.

I agree on the three Marlin advantages you mention. New Marlins tend to be smoother than new Winchesters.

When I referred to the Winchester m94 being associated with taming the American West, I spoke only of reference not history--in other words, the movies and images and make peoples' associations accounts for the m94 look being so recognizable. In fact, I suspect that often in film a m94 is used in scenes that supposedly take place before 1894, and a historically correct rifle would be an m73 or Henry, etc. I love it when a film shows the historically correct lever rifle.

And as for the American West, since 1894 or soon after, the m94 has been very commonly owned and used throughout the West I know and where I have lived--Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, Idaho--even though in this open country poeple have usually preferrd longer range cartridge bolt guns for hunting. I think the wide use there of m94 since the end of the 19th C. also accounts for their heavey association with the West.

Advocate · « **Reply #15 on:** February 22, 2003, 09:16:08 AM »

I'm using a new M-94 Win Trapper in .44 Mag and find it very accurate and servicable. It's a lot of fun because I can shoot it in nearby indoor ranges and not have to make an all day expedition out to the boon docks just to target shoot. I agree that Marlins are slicker and I like the Marlin 1894 action, but Marlin's .44 Mag's have 38" twists and Winchester has a 26" twist which is far more compatible with the heavier .44 caliber bullets.

I really like the 16" barrell too. Vey handy.

Bob_K · « **Reply #16 on:** February 22, 2003, 03:05:50 PM »

I prefer Marlin over Winchester, primarily because of the centerline scope mount capability. But my favorite levergun is my Browning BLR in .308. It's magazine fed so pointed bullets are not a problem. Accuracy is superb!

gringo · « **Reply #17 on:** February 22, 2003, 09:51:58 PM »

"Accuracy" in Leveractions.

A leveraction is for me a quick handling huntingrifle and the accuracy you need in such one is good enough even with a socalled bad manufactured winchester 94 made in the 1990s without the crossbolt safety.

I must reply a few questions thow.

The steelmanufacturing industri has developed new and better metodes for measuring, drilling, and fitting steelparts since 1964 and to theese days.
There is generally better qualityinsurement now also.

Why has not Winchester made this evolution?
This 1964 post and pre, is this significant for the boltrifles to?

Why should Winchester just give marlin the markedadvantage by making bad "post 64" winchester?

Is this post pre 64 a superstisious believe created of "old winchester entusiasm?

In Norway a Marlin 336 30-30 cost about 815 dollar, a winchester 94 30-30 costs 1000 dollar!

Not bad for a post 64 Winchester

Post is a word taken from the word postludium also used in the latin "post mortem."

Is there any proved about the post and pre 64s, do they still use bad quality steel today?

Gringo (With a "post 90 pre crossboltsafety 94")

Win71 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 23, 2003, 03:18:20 AM »

Gringo, Winchester doesn't use "bad steel" today, they never have. The manufacturing process in all Winchesters today, seems especially the model 94 is not as good as the pre-64's. Please read Blackwater's post at the top of this page again. His statements about earlier Winchesters are very accurate. Winchester should have somebody reading this board and others regarding the quality of their current products. It is no wonder they are no longer the first choice when someone buys a new levergun or any firearm for that matter. Winchester has a very long and great history. I'm affraid if they don't make some positive changes soon that is all they'll have.

Hud · « **Reply #19 on:** February 23, 2003, 04:44:41 AM »

When you hear about "bad steel" talked about in post 64 Winchesters I don't think they are meaning "unsafe" it is just that the blueing didn't hold up on them and when reblued the reciever would turn kind of a purple color. It might actually be better steel. I don't think the new ones of U.S. Repeating Arms are that way. The blueing seems much better.

Hud

86er · « **Reply #20 on:** February 23, 2003, 04:54:01 AM »

In 1924 Winchester ceased production of the '94 rifle in favor of the model 55.like the later model 64, these guns had 24" round barrels and half mags as standard. 25-35, 30-30 and 32 Special were the available calibers. They are marked "Model 55" on the barrel. Like the later '86s these beautifully made rifles have the front sight forged as an integral part of the barrel.The 55 was made until 1936, when production of the model 64 began.
The earlier models of Winchester rifles give lasting testament to the absolute quality of their manufacture. They were hand fitted and finished, a costly and labor intensive process that can't be duplicated today. The new 94s are a far cry from their older kind. It's shameful I tell 'ya.

86er · « **Reply #21 on:** February 23, 2003, 05:01:11 AM »

In 1924 Winchester ceased production of the '94 rifle in favor of the model 55.like the later model 64, these guns had 24" round barrels and half mags as standard. 25-35, 30-30 and 32 Special were the available calibers. They are marked "Model 55" on the barrel. Like the later '86s these beautifully made rifles have the front sight forged as an integral part of the barrel.The 55 was made until 1936, when production of the model 64 began.
The earlier models of Winchester rifles give lasting testament to the absolute quality of their manufacture. They were hand fitted and finished, a costly and labor intensive process that can't be duplicated today. The new 94s are a far cry from their older kind. It's shameful I tell 'ya.

razmuz · « **Reply #22 on:** February 23, 2003, 08:38:04 AM »

Both lever actions will get the job done. Winchester has hads it's ups and downs over the years and has made a lot of changes such as plastic parts and birch wood. Marlin has never had to change and and is set up for a scope. The Marlin is easy to clean and you can clean the bore from the breach. The cowboy in me likes the Winchester and the hunter in me likes the Marlin.