Winchester white box .223 cases too long?

[rgsheehan]

After reading all the glowing reviews on the 45gr Winchester white box economy ammo, I tried it in my brand new NEF Handi rifle.  Almost all of the cases failed to eject after firing.  There was no problem with the Federal and Remington ammo I tried.  After getting home and gearing up to do some reloading for this rifle, I measured the length of the fired cases and found all the Winchester brass to be at least .010 over the SAAMI spec.  Also, alarmingly, I found almost all of the primers on the fired Winchester cases showed distinct evidence of flattening.  Has anyone else seen this problem?

Thanks,
R. G. Sheehan

[hunterwinco]

I have fire two boxes of the Win White box in my new .223.  I haven't reloaded for the 223 since the white box is giving me Great Groups...so I havent had need to measure case length.  I WILL say that I see quite a few of the primers flattening.  I recently posted several messages in this forum about a .243 I had flattening primers.   I went back to the dealer and he gave me another .243 and it flattened primers with federal and winchester---and flattened them way more than anything Ive ever seen from factory ammo.  I ended up taking the 2nd .243 back and they gave me my .223.  Some of the primers in my .223 show no flattening, but most show some.  I have used the 45g white box mostly, but I did have some Win White box in 62g...that also flattened.  I think I share your quandry.

[Brokenrack]

Sounds like an excieve headspace problem.  Have a Gunsmith check it for you.

[quickdtoo]

I just checked all the win white box and ultramax reman brass that I have shot in my .223 Ultra, all the primers show slight flattening, but no cratering....I wouldn't worry about it, they're supposed to be pretty hot for a factory load at 3500-3600fps. I've never had a stuck case in my .223, but I polished the chamber before I even shot it, makes a difference for most of us.

[stiff neck]

they're supposed to be pretty hot for a factory load at 3500-3600fps

That's what the box says, but there was another post recently where a bunch of folks said they've never gotten close to that on their chronographs.

[quickdtoo]

Yeah, I know...Donaldo, Paul5388 and Longcruise all got 3200-3450 fps depending on their barrel length of 22" to 24"....Winchester must use a real long barrel to get the 3600fps out of this load, they don't indicate barrel length. All of my load books show max velocities of 3400-3600fps for max loads using 45gr bullets. So the 3400-3450fps in a 24" barrel is pretty close to a max load, anyway you look at it and it's not surprising that primers are show some flattening in the Handis/Ultras.

http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/cfrdetail.aspx?symbol=USA2232&cart=MjIzIFJlbWluZ3Rvbg==

[nipprdog]

their site used  to indicate that the 3600fps came from a 26" barrel.

[USA Varminter]

I would check the ejector for proper lubrication, I've had several NEF's fail to eject at no fault of the cartridge.  Even the 410's don't always throw the hull, even w/ 2 1/2" hulls.

[Fred M]

SAAMI max for the 223 is 63366psi.. At 60504psi a 45gr Hornady bullet will get 3610 ft in a 24" barrel. Several powders can do it. At that rate depending on the primer make there will be flattening and with just another 1/2gr of powder you can easy get 70kpsi and that is pretty hot.

All small cases operate at high pressure, how else you get the high velocities? Flat primers and expanded primer pockets are part of the price you have to pay.

I have a 223 Handi 24" barrel but have never fired it. I  think I will start at about 54K with a 50gr bullet when I find some time. That should turn up about 3250ft ?

[rgsheehan]

I too cleaned the gun well and -lightly- polished the chamber before firing it.  The SAAMI spec I wrote about is the -case length- .  All the Winchester cases were ~.010 over spec.  They all stuck in the gun.  They all had flattened primers.  None of the Federal or Remington cartridges stuck, and none had any primer deformation.  All of them were at least .005 -under- the SAAMI length spec.  My Hornady reloading manual specifically states one of the reasons for dangerously high pressures is cases too long.   This sounds like a safety issue to me.  Hopefully not just -the price we have to pay-.  At any rate, I posted just to see if anybody else had noticed the problem, actually measured their fired cases, and found this length issue.

Thanks for the responses.
R. G. Sheehan

[jeff223]

you might want to try some Black Hills ammo in your gun.the price for this ammo is very good and its great shooting ammo.they load a number of differant bullets in their ammo for you to try.the 52gr match hollow point shoots very good out of my sons rifle.

if you shoot alot you might want to look into handloading for your rifle.it will pay for itself in no time and the ammo you can produce will be top notch if you get into it.you can taylor the ammo to your rifle.my 223 handi rifle has never seen  factory ammo since i got it new in the box

[Bad Irv]

rgsheehan:
 I bought 100 new 223 Winchester brass from Gander Mountain, and about half of them where over spec. on the length as well. They varied as much as .006 inch. I trimmed them all to just under maximum length after I resized them. I leave the brass long (but of uniform length) on purpose because my Ultra has a very long throat. Fred M is right about the high pressure rounds with the small cases. My wife shoots the Win. USA white box 9mm ammo in her Ruger P89, and the primers are all flat as pancakes, but when she uses UMC ammo, the primers look normal with no pressure signs. I don't think your cases are sticking because of the long brass. I'd sooner think it's due to the combination of the hot load (high pressure), and maybe a still slightly rough chamber. Also the chamber needs to be really dry, no oil or solvents.
 
Best, Charles