Round nose bullets dangers

[Doctor Sam]

I have read many times that pointed bullets should not be used in a lever action/recoil/primer/etc.  I have never met anyone who has destroyed a rifle this way.
What about cast round nose?  Would a Lyman round nose 170g be safe in a 30-30, say a 311291?  Any of you use this in the lever magazine?

Has anyone personally had a round go off in a magazine?  I don't mean have you heard of one or someone told you somebody did.  Did it happen to you?  How?

An Uncle of mine used this bullet in a M94 to shoot turtles on a river near his camp.  He is gone now and I can't ask him.
Help me out, Gentlemen.

[savageT]

Doc,
I think the answer whether or not to use round nosed bullets lie in how they fit when stacked up bulletnose to primer.  If the nose is pressing on the primer there's a good chance for detonation to occur in a tubular magazine.  The choice is up to you.....You can still load them in the chamber one at a time.

Jim

[John Y Cannuck]

I've heard of a round going off in the mag either, except internet heresay with no proof, , but I'm not willing to load pointed bullets in there to check out a theory.
As to the round noses, probably safe if they are fairly blunt I would think, but You'll have to decide that yourself.

[Oldtimer]

I have an older reloading manual that shows a Ruger .44 Magnum Deerstalker that had rounds go off.  The front end was totally wiped out.  I would not have liked to have hold of it when it happened.  The problem was that the shooter was using FMJ bullets.  Remington considered the problem to be likely enough that they put a spiral groove in the magazine of  the Model 141 pump.  I don't think that lead bullets would be as likely to cause detonation as FMj's or spitzers.  In the real world of hunting with a lever action, there is no need for a pointed bullet.  I think that the figure for trajectory for a .30-30 is that the spitzer would hit less than 2 inches higher at 150 yards.

[John Traveler1]

I personally know of of a lever action tubular magazine detonation several years ago.  I didn't see it happen, but it was several positions down the firing line, and everyone looked just minutes after the incident.  It was a Marlin .357 M1894C that the shooter had loaded with FMJ metallic silhouette (sp?) bullets deep seated into .357 cases.  The mid-magazine detonation set off at least two cartridges, and burst the magine tube and  split the forearm.  Luckily no on was hurt, but it sure shook up the shooter!

High-speed video documentation has proven that the problem of tubular magazines and pointed or FMJ bullets is a real one.  Loaded cartridges actually bounce a couple inches during recoil, and it's this recoil/bounce motion that can set off primers.  Hard primers can somewhat reduce the hazard, but the only way to prevent such detonation is to NEVER load pointed/FMJ cartridges into a magazine with other rounds in front of them!

The Lyman 311291 173 grain RN lead bullet was DESIGNED for the .30-30 winchester, and works very well in that at well as most other .30 rifles.  I've loaded and fired many thousands of this bullet in the last 30 years of shooting this caliber.  No problems and no detonations in many Winchester 94 and Marlin rifles.  It and many other RN or RNF cast bullets are perfectly safe to use in tubular magazines.

HTH
John

[Rick Teal]

I've measured the meplats of several flat tipped bullets, and found them to be about .17 in diameter.  The diameter of a primer is about .210, so even a flat tipped bullet bears mainly on the centre of the primer of the bullet ahead of it during the recoil cycle.  I think the risk of detonation occurs primarily when the force of the recoil is centred primarily in one small point - such as the tip of a pointed or fmj bullet.

I make some flat tipped (concave actually) metallic bullets, and I had concerns about using them in tubular magazined rifles.  I made some up in 300 grain weights, and loaded them in .356 Winchester cases with live primers but no powder  I then put them in the magazine of my '94 and fired live .356 rounds.  I had no negative results - in fact there was no indication of any risk whatever.  I have a post on 5the swaging forum titled something like "The stesting of my Flat Tipped Bullets" if you want to read the details and view some pictures.

[Greeenriver]

There has been a prety lively discussion over on the SASS wire within the last week or so about this same subject.  www.SASSNET.com, wire forum, SASS wire.  

SASS is down at the moment, but when it comes back up it would be worth droping over there to read it.

Please disregard the ocasional high temper, we ain't all growed up yet.

Greeenriver

[w30wcf]

As John Traveler1 indicated, the 311291 was designed for the .30-30. The year of introduction was 1906.

Over the years, .30-30 factory ammunition has been loaded with bullets that had fairly small flat points. For example: the 110 gr. H.P. loaded from 1925- early 1950's, full patch round nosed bullets 1895 - early 1960's and the current Speer Ammunition using their 150 and 170 gr bullets. If there was a problem, the factories wouldn't have loaded them.

That is because .30-30 cartridges do not stack up with the bullet nose resting directly on the primer of the cartridge in front of it. If one observes the way they come from the magazine into the carrier of a '94 Winchester, one will see that the bullet noses alternate from left to right to left, etc.

The flat nose on my RCBS 180 gr. SP is about the same diameter as the 110 gr. h.p. (.12") and bigger than tip of the round nosed full patch loadings. I have put prussian blue on the tips of these bullets and loaded them into the magazine.  When they were run through the action and ejected, there was no blueing on the primers whatsoever, only on the back of the cartridge case.

Round nosed bullets in straight walled pistol cartridges are another matter entirely. The bullet nose rests directly on the primer. Caution is the  order in that situation.

w30wcf

[86er]

I believe that this is much to do about nothing. RNs pose little threat when used in tubular magazines. I have used them for many years in my 1886 Winchester .45-70 and .45-90 rifles. My loads are quite stout, with substantial recoil, providing every opportunity for a magazine detonation. It isn't going to happen! There is simply too much bearing surface on the face of a RN to allow the primer to be pierced. A PSP would be quite dangerous in a tubular mag., but not a RN.

This is just my opinion. It is not based on any scientific study, just a few years of practical experience.

[Dee]

I agree with 86er. I have a model 94 Winchester (1957 model) that has had hundreds of factory 150gr round nose bullets and even more hard cast gas checked 170gr  round nose ran thru it with no problems. These loads were all loaded to 2400 fps including the cast 170s (loading manual data). The rifle holds seven rounds. I have been hand loading them since 1970 but the gun has been in the family since it was new with never a hitch. I also load 405gr cast round noses to 1750fps (thats about all I can stand) in a 1895 Marlin cb. It holds nine rounds, with no problems. And an 1892 Winchester 357mag is loaded with 158gr jacketed to 1820fps. It holds 13 rounds with no problems.

[tanoose]

There are no dangers using round nose bullets in a lever action. Fed rem, and win, have been loading 30/30 and 35 rem with round nose bullets for use in lever actions since day one, if you need a piece of mind call them and talk to them about it . (i did) If i can get to the attic theres an old gun digest  where they did an article about this subject they put a lever tube in a vise and tried to set off rounds usiung pointed bullets by hitting them with a mallet, it took about 50 hits before there was no lead left and the copper set off the primer and when it did not much happened as not being a tight chamber the was simply no pressure build up. I found it a very interesting article, and if i find what  year digest it was i'll post it for you guys  later Tanoose

[Lawdog]

Doctor Sam,

I have seen a number of police reports, including pictures, of lever action rifles that have had a cartridge go off in the magazine when using pointed bullets.  Isn't pretty and I kn0ow I wouldn't want to be the guy doing the shooting when it happened.  Lawdog
 

[Dee]

I was a police officer in Texas for 20 years. I personally carried a Model 94 Winchester 3030 (mfg in 1957) my Dad gave me on patrol and on man hunts as a tracker. I carried factory loaded 150gr ROUND NOSE bullets with never a problem.
The Texas Highway Patrol was issued 3030s (mostly Winchesters) up until the late 1970s and I never heard of this happening. They later replaced them with Mini-14s Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
The Texas Dept. of Corrections issued them to tower guards and HIGHRIDERS. As I occasionally transported high risk prisoners to Huntsville, Tx. I personally view the Highriders carrying the Winchesters across the pommel of their saddles for quick access in case a prisoner ran. With them being carried horseback this way I am sure they were occasionally dropped. If anything was going to cause a magazine discharge that should do it, but again I never heard of one. I quit carrying mine and opted for an M4A2 only because I began running an SRT team and Tactical K-9. However, make no mistake a 3030 will down a man in a hurry. I would be very interested in reading some of these original reports
to see if they determined the cause. Would it be possible to post some of these reports with the dept. name and victims address ect. blotted out?

[Savage .250]

Doctor Sam:
    You said in part"...........Pointed bullets should not be used in a lever".
     In a tube fed lever maybe but if you`ve got a Savage 99 they "stack"
just like in a bolt action. Later ones (99`s) came with a clip.
     That is one of it`s many attributes that make this a weapon(older 99`s) ahead of it`s time. Guys that own-um know what i mean
    .
 
   " The best part of the hunt is not the harvest but in the experience."

[Harry Snippe]

Doctor Sam:
    You said in part"...........Pointed bullets should not be used in a lever".
     

Think the confusion is more with the pointed bullets Vs. the flat nosed than the RN vs. the flat point.

Look at remingtons 35 cal bullets think they have been used for a long long time
My Marlin made in '54 still has the factory tube and I am the second owner

[Savage .250]

Doctor Sam:
    You said in part"...........Pointed bullets should not be used in a lever".
     

Think the confusion is more with the pointed bullets Vs. the flat nosed than the RN vs. the flat point.

Look at remingtons 35 cal bullets think they have been used for a long long time
My Marlin made in '54 still has the factory tube and I am the second owner

 Harry" we talking pointed bullet impacking primer in shell immediately
 in front of said bullet/shell possibly causing a mishap?  
  If it weren`t for the "mishap" possibility RM vs PP it`s kind of mute.
  Comment not ment to challenge you in anyway, just to understand your "take".  :-)
   Original question led me in the "mishap" direction.  
   " The best part of the hunt is not the harvest but in the experience."

[muskeg13]

I'll never use round nose bullets in a lever action, even though that wasn't my problem.  I blew up my Rossi 92 .44 Mag Puma on a quiet Sunday last May (04) while shooting alone and have the scars to show for it.  I was using a relatively moderate load of 10gr Unique, 200gr flat nose cast bullets with a very wide metplat and Fed 150 primers in new WW cases.  I'd used some of these cartridges before with no problems, but on the second shot, it felt like I'd been hit in the face with a baseball bat.  Something, maybe a high primer or improperly seated cartridge, caused a round to go off in the magazine and then 5 more went off in a chain reaction.  It only took a split second.  Enough gas built up to cause the mag tube to pull away from the receiver and flare out towards my left cheek.  Parts of shell cases, bullets, partially burnt powder and the magazine plug were propelled rearward (towards me).  The front of the tube gave way and the spring and muzzle end mag plug went forwards.  The fore end shattered, but my hand was not hurt.  Bullets, bearing the imprint of the case headstamp of the round before them were driven back into the cases.  The loads compressed, then detonated at some point when driven back against the round behind them, or it could of happened from back to front.  I don't know.  Although I was struck by two bullets, one in the left collarbone and one in the right thumbnail, leaving painful bruises, the magazine plug did me the most damage.  The mag plug hit my left cheek, punching a 3/4" hole between the corner of my mouth and left edge of my nose.  It also broke a front tooth in half, knocking it out by the root and splitting my upper lip in half.  I remained conscious the whole time, but the blow killed the nerves, so there was no pain.  After spitting out two mouthfulls of blood, the bleeding almost stopped, allowing me to quickly throw my gear in the back of the truck, lock up the range and drive 10 miles to the doc so that he could sew me back together.   Fortunately for me, my normal impact resistant eyeglasses and shooting muffs protected my eyes and ears.  Undeniably, I am extremely fortunate and had divine protection that afternoon.  The Rossi will soon be repaired.  It has been too good a shooter in both .44 Mag and 38-40 to let it stand as a reminder of a bad accident.  I'll have to replace the mag assembly and loading lever spring.  What caused it?  It certainly wasn't the bullets.  Fed 150 primers are sensitive, but something had to strike them to set them off, so it was probably a high, improperly seated, primer.