Questions before getting started?

[halfbreed]

Hello everybody, I have read nearly all the threads here on swaging, lots to read and try to follow. I have never done or even seen any swaging going on, but I think I would like to get involved.
 My first few questions are what is the initial start up prices for something like the walnut hill set up, I would like to do various jacketed .44, 210hp, 240hp, 300gn semi jacketed flat point, and then the .338 300+ grain hp, somewhat like the sierra match king.
 what is the accuracy levels expected with bullets like this, how do they compare  in a test against smk's and the a-max?
 I do not rush things, so I am not in a hurry. how many can reasonably be made while making all the checks for accuracy. These bullets would be used for long range hunting.
 Your help and advice would be greatly appreciated. By the way I have read alot of info at corbins and rce's sites. Just trying to sift fact from fiction.
 Thanks halfbreed

[talon]

Here's more to think about: After you've been swaging for awhile and find it's not for you, you can sell your tooling and supplies for just about as much as you paid for it. In that regard its a better investment than most!! Too, if you can find your own supply of "pure" lead, you can cut your cost per bullet quite a bit. If you cast your cores (recommended for .44+ caliber and above) you'll need to get a lead furnace... a good one runs about $125 or so. If you are going to make pistol bullets, be sure to order a Base Guard punch in leu of the standard flat face one. And get a sack or two of the 'Guards' as they save you from lubing chores, and that takes a lot of time and mess. If you plan to sell some of what you make, you'll need to fill out a lot of State and Federal paperwork for the necessary licence. About the quality of the bullets you can make... swage is right: you get out what you put in. But the Corbin Co and RCE equipment, And Butch's (Durham Bullet Company) jackets are industry standards. The differential in quality from the bullet you make and the best you can buy is in the care you put into making it... and it's so easy it's unbelievable. By the way, I reread those books by Corbin about once every 6 months and learn something new each time. Swaging is one of those fields where the more you know the  more you know you don't know. That's one of the things that makes it more interesting. Finally, I have found that the biggest aggravation is the 6 to 8 month waiting time to get dies, and the 4 month wait for the jackets. There is no avoiding planning ahead in this hobby.

[talon]

For the last 4 or 5 months Butch ( Mr Jacket) has spent most of his time aligning his shop: lots of new machines, new tooling, etc. Jacket production has been very slow for sure, but he's on the downward side of the curve now, and estimates only 4 months or less between jacket order and shipment. On the other hand, .700 caliber jackets, or other non-standard types will take longer. Swage, as you know, but others might not, any ' strange' caliber jacket below 1/2" can be made quickly by having Butch make the next larger standard jacket, and you having a reducing die made to take it to the desired diameter. You'll have to calculate the elongation the jacket makes when it is reduced in size to order the proper size ' parent' stock. But, when you get above .50 caliber you are in an entirely different situation. The shop that makes your .700 caliber cups will have a lot of expense: copper strip for them will be really expensive, as will the series of cupping and forming dies and punches. You'd certainly have to make quite a few more jackets to bring the cost down to acceptable levels, far more jackets than I doubt will ever be used by all the elephant hunters in the world for the next 300 years!!! I'm really surprised that RCE had Any to send at all at what ever cost! I think you a lucky guy to get them. Maybe RCE can tell you where they got them and you can go to that source. Your thought about getting a .700"  tube jacket making kit probably is the way to go, though.  At the diameter you are looking at, one or two reduction dies may be needed, too, and you'd probably be limited to a really thick walled jacket. That would be far less expensive than trying to find tubing at the final diameter you need. I'm starting to think that it's this production problem that causes most very large caliber Rifle bullets to be lathe turned from solid stock.

[halfbreed]

thanks for the replies guys, I always ask questions from people who are supposedly in the know, before I go buying any tools or gadgets that might work better than the factory stuff. I do not go off half cocked, especially when I am spending money. I already do alot of bullet casting, .44, .458, .357, and a few others. I keep thinking about a 50 bmg. These A-max bullets are about $1.50 each 750 grains, I was thinking about making these and .458 win mag fodder, as well as a few others. Possibly for the 44. and .338, I am still in the thinking/debating phase.
 how good are the bullets using refrigeration copper line for gilding jacket material? The .50, and .338 will be used for punching paper and possibly hunting long range.
 Halfbreed

[talon]

Halfbreed, I've made quite a few jackets using 3/8"d rigid copper tube ( refrigeration line). It's good for .375s all the way down to .338s for sure, and possibly to .32 caliber (but it's easier to just use jackets made for 30 cal for .32 work). Wall thickness is .032"... maybe .035". If you follow the instructions in the book for making " tube Jackets" it's easy. Annealing isn't that hard using a propane hand torch in a darkened room so you can see the color change. I use a band saw with a metal cutting blade and a jig I made to cut the tube to length. A person can do a real good job maintaining length and clean cutting if he takes his time and pays attention. How good are these tube jackets: g-r-e-a-t !!! How effective they are on game depends upon your design, the type of skin and bone, and your shooting ability. Simply put, if you copy a commercial bullet's design, and use your copy on the same game the store bought bullet was designed for, even Sherlock Holms couldn't tell the difference in effect. But, frankly, Butch can make a .035" thick walled jacket at less cost for you, so I haven't made a tube jacket in 3 years.  I believe his prices are most fair. About 50 cal: a hand press is at it's limits swaging 50 caliber pure lead bullets. You definitely have to go to a hydraulic press to make a jacketed 50 call. I can't say anymore because I don't do anything over .458 myself. Even at .458, you have to stay under .035" wall thickness. And a last word: " Swage" referred to tapered walled jackets: stay away from tapered wall jackets unless you have some experience in swaging. While they are superior to strait walled jackets as to their effects on game, the fellow who swages them either has to stick to one weight of bullet, use some sort of filler under the lead core, or have 5 or 8 different length external Core Seating punches if he cares to change the weight of the bullet. Later, if you care to " upgrade" to this technique, the only expense, after getting the jackets (usually same price as strait walls), is a few smaller diameter punches ( smaller by a thousandth or two or three).  

[halfbreed]

Talon, thank you for a very informative reply, it is very much appreciated. Does Butch have a website? Is there a good video or dvd available with the basic differances, after thinking more about some of this, it would become an expensive hobby, for feeding the 458 winnie, and a few smaller cartridges, I think I saw the hydraulic bench top models starting around 3500 dollars? that would be hard to justify for the 50bmg. but it could be interesting though.
 Are you able to make partition style bullets with this swaging equipment? I really want to learn more, but don't really want to buy a whole library just to answer a few basic questions.
 Sorry if these juvenile questions are getting to be a bit much, just trying to learn something before getting in too deep
 halfbreed

[talon]

Halfbreed, Six years ago I was in your shoes. And, you know the saying about dumb questions... there are none! No, Butch does not have a web site, but is working on a series of boiler plate attachments he can add to emails giving details of each caliber of bullet jacket he makes. As previously mentioned he has a 'day job' that requires him to be gone, sometimes weeks at a time, but when he's home, he answers all emails and makes lots of jackets. He is the only source that I know of that produces commercial jackets at 338 caliber and above, and can make them from 224 to 30 cal if forced to. As for a DVD on swaging, I understand back when there were dinosaurs, the Corbin brothers produced one. I don't think any copies are around now. It's an item sorely lacking. An excellent project would be to make a series of videos (VCR, DVD, whatever) showing all of the various subject matter in motion... there's books that explain it all, but a picture is worth a thousand words, and a video would make those one dimensional pictures in those books come alive.  You can make partition bullets, with a real swaged partition, in a hydraulic press. I do that for my .416sa. It requires a set of 4 special punches and the body of a CS die. Or, you can almost achieve a partition by inverting a slightly smaller in diameter and shorter length jacket in the jacket you are swaging. The lead core goes in the smaller jacket. Details of this are found in one of the corban books. A small Mity Mite or Series S or Walnut Hill press can handle that method.  HOWEVER, except for some very heavy game, bonded core bullets achieve the same purpose and are a lot less expensive to make ("Swage" told how he did the bonding in his comments above). Some would argue this, but beware of marketing hype.

[halfbreed]

Gentlemen, over this weekend I was shooting a couple of big 50's, the first ones I have ever shot, it was tremendous fun!
 But I did realize a few things though, very few shooting ranges will allow them on the range. there is definatly a COST for the fun factor. The recoil was much less than my 458 winnie, or even the 300 ultra.
 I don't think I will be getting into this one, however I might try getting into something for the 458 or even wildcat something for the 300, maybe a 458/300 ultra.
 Possibilities are endless here, thank you guys for the info. I might still be interested in swaging, just have to find the right calibers . Really don't want to purchase too many die sets. LOL
 Halfbreed

[halfbreed]

Swage, over the weekend I was shooting the 50BMG, A Barrett bolt action. It was great, recoil was very easy to handle, of course hearing protection was top notch, it was just a very easy gun to shoot, I was very impressed. But also I was informed about the down side of it too. High purchase price for a quality rig, High cost of precision ammo, necessity of high priced optics, limited ranges to shoot,and so on.
 So now I guess I will stay with the more reasonable calibers that can be shot anywhere. But man that 50BMG was fun. But to me it is just not a reasonable purchase at this time. I will always want one. I guess when I win the lottery.LOL
 Halfbreed

[halfbreed]

Swage, I shoot the 300 ultra, and the 458 win mag. I would be interested in swaging for both and the .44 as well.
 before I go the 50/110 I will do a large wildcat on the 300 ultra.
 I thank you for your time and advice, I do appreciate it.
 Halfbreed

[halfbreed]

Swage, there are some good thoughts in starting with the pistol bullets first, I too think it would be a good idea to start with the easiest bullets, easier to get, and work with. They would be a good starter type project.
 then i could get into the harder to obtain, and somewhat more expensive rifle jackets. I will have to go back to both Corbin's and RCE's sites to look up supplies again. Thank all of you for the help and info, halfbreed