Author Topic: Uberti 1860 percusion caps/ignition problem (Read 1859 times)

Norseman · « **on:** March 27, 2005, 02:06:56 PM »

I just received my Uberti 1860 revolver from Dixie Gun works. Fit and finish is fantastic and it's a beautifull gun. Here my problem.
I cleaned the gun up of all oil and grease and wanted to try various caps
to see how they fit and functioned (not loaded with powder and ball) prior to going to the range later this month. I tried CCI#11 Magnum caps, CCI regular#11's and Remington#11's. With all of them I had at least 50% failure to fire, some of them needed to be hit by the hammer a third time but mostly went off after a second hit. What should I do? Get another set of nipples? Help me out boys, what are your suggestions?

quigleysharps4570 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 27, 2005, 02:46:34 PM »

My Pietta 1860 uses #10 caps...might try that. Was thinking most did. I use Remingtons and don't have any problems.

DakotaDan · « **Reply #2 on:** March 27, 2005, 02:50:31 PM »

The easy answer is to swap out the offending nipples with replacements. That is assuming you have some nipples that are consistently not firing and it isn't a random problem of all six chambers. I have used foil gaskets to raise the nipple height ever so slightly with good effect. For me, when that doesn't work I replace the nipple. Might also consider #10's.
-dd

ribbonstone · « **Reply #3 on:** March 27, 2005, 03:51:02 PM »

Simpest tip is to be sure the caps are fully down on the nipples. With uncharged/unloaded chambers. put a cap on each nipple..then push the cap with a wooden dowl to be sure it is as far down as it can go. YES...people have managed to set off a cap this way, which is why you test this with an uncharged cylinder (so there is no big boom) and a wooden dowl (so you dont burn the devil out of your finger tip). If fully down and still a no go, then keep reading....if that cures it, then you need better fitting caps (or different nipples to fit the caps you have).

If it still gives trouble...

Holding the empty gun to the side, holding the cylinder FORWARD, take a look at the lowered hammer and the nipple. IF the hammer is toching the nipple or just barely not touching, then it's not the nipple height. IF the hammer face is well away from the nipple AND the cylinder has a good bit of front-to-back movement, then you may not have the wedge driven in far enough.

If the wedge is in tight and the cylinder has little front-to-back movemnt and the hammer still doesn't come close to the nipple, you need new nipples (or check to see if a burr is blocking the hammer from going fully down).

May as well check the hammer to see if it's got any rub marks or dings on the side...if it contacts the frame or cylinder recess before fully lowering, then it wastes it's power and hits the caps too lightly.
------
opps..forgot a couple:

Check that the cylinder is in time when the hammer falls...that the bolt (the rectangualr bit that pops up and down under the cylinder) has poped up in one of the locking notches..this locks the cylinder from roations and aligns it with the barrel. IF it's not locked up, it isn't aligned, and the hammer is hitting off center.

BTW: too tight fit between cylinder and barrel (but way of drivng that wedge in too far) can bind them...and bound, you are more likely to not have that cylinder move into alignment.

Mainspring is kind of suspect...but you'd probably notice a too light main spring if you've ever handled a revovler before.

flamenblaster · « **Reply #4 on:** March 28, 2005, 04:45:09 AM »

A couple months back i got pietta 1860 from cabelas..same problem..cci 10's seemed to fit...11's would just fall off unless i pinched them first..both misfired on all 6 nipples on my first attempt almost every time..then they fired on the second attempt fairly well..i was advised by others here to try treso nipples and use 11's...since then i havent had any misfires at all..they go off the first time every time. Just looking at the factory nipples i cant see anything obviously wrong with them except that by switching to tresos the problem was solved.

Norseman · « **Reply #5 on:** March 28, 2005, 05:59:41 AM »

I experimented with my new Uberti 1860 Army again today. I checked for burrs and there where none. I checked cylinder gap/wedge fit. With wedge tapped in and the gap .003. I tried backing out the nipples first 1/4 turn then 1/2 turn and tried. Still had misfires on three nipples. I tightened them back down. The Remington#11's which are a slight loose fit and had to pinch them very slightly. They fired well on three nipples but the other three required a second hits. The CCI#11's both regular and Magnum required double hits for all six and they appeared tighter. Since the Remington fired off three with no problem it doesn't seem to be a mainspring thing. This appears to be a nipple problem. When I looked real close at the factory nipples and ends all appear to be machines slightly rounded.
Any recommendations for a replacement nipple set? I have been checking around and have found Tresco/AMPCO (are these the same?). Does Uncle Mike's still make hot shop nipples? Oh, as for the #10 size caps/nipples. Aren't they smaller than #11's?
This Uberti 1860 is a masterpiece. Even though I have this nipple/ignition set back it doesn't disappoint me. But I am dying to shoot this beauty. It's been 20 years since I fooled with black powder revolvers. It's what I first got into when the gun bug hit me. I guess things come around in circles don't they? So, what should I do now guys?

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #6 on:** March 28, 2005, 09:08:55 AM »

I think I read that the Hot Shot nipples are no longer produced.

Ian

ribbonstone · « **Reply #7 on:** March 28, 2005, 12:41:19 PM »

Can try Track of the Wolf...have a nice web-site...a lot of nipples, but if you email them with your problem, will get back to you witha suggersted nipple.

Norseman · « **Reply #8 on:** March 28, 2005, 02:06:02 PM »

Well, I ordered six Tresco/Ampco replacement nipples for an uberty 1860 "new production" revolver. I think this should resolve the glitch I have for this beautiful gun. If it's not the nipples, could it be a weak mainspring that just happened to get into the shoe box of parts they assembled at the factory? If so, who makes the best replacement part-mainspring? I really want to get his gun up and blazon'!
It's been 20+years since I fooled with percusion pistols! I have other black powder rifles and my favorite is the Lyman Great Plains .54. But you know whats weird? All the recommendations I read about today seem like pip squeak loads compared to what I remember. Corn meal filler? Naaaah. Maybe a piece of cornbread to munch on. Wads? Common...I think I will start out with a 30 grain load of FFF and consider a 40 grain the max. This stopped off with a smidgen of Crisco or lard...maybe bore butter. The ball I will start off with will be a .454. Some people say maybe even larger. What do you all think? More enquiries/suggestions are welcomed, especially with the ignition problem.

ribbonstone · « **Reply #9 on:** March 28, 2005, 03:50:44 PM »

Start with 30gr. No complaint about the powder-ball-grease type load, the wad is just a bit faster and less messy. I still plink and play arround with no wad, just the grease cover, and other than being a bit more filthy at the end of the day, can't say it really makes a difference.

The .454's nearly always work....if you are going to guess, better to guess a little too large than too small.

1851 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 28, 2005, 11:48:22 PM »

Noresman,

I just got an Uberti 1851 Navy from Dixie Gun Works and I have the same problem. I love the quality of mine too, it's a bummer it didn't work quite right from the box. I use #10 size caps. The mainspring is really light on mine. I have an Uberti 1858 and it fired fine from the very first shot. I compared the nipples and the ones on the 1851 are slightly shorter. I tried the taller nipples on the 1851 without any improvement. Six caps and not one fired. The hammer left a dent on the outside and the nipple left an impression on the inside of the caps. The hammer just gives an impotent thud rather than a crisp snap, if that makes sense. I wrote to DGW and they're sending me another spring.

Let us know if new nipples help. I'll post how it goes with a different spring, I should have it in a few days.

Tim

Norseman · « **Reply #11 on:** March 29, 2005, 02:22:25 AM »

As a contingency, I will call Dixie and have them send me another mainspring just to be sure about this.
So, what is the easiest way to remove and replace the mainspring? I will check out the other thread/sticky on it as well.
As for the hammer/spring feeling weak, I can't really tell due to the fact it's been a while since I had a reproduction Colt. I do have a Ruger Bisley .44 and a Single Six .22 but I really can't compare it to them?

ribbonstone · « **Reply #12 on:** March 29, 2005, 11:41:23 AM »

Not completely compariable...those others consentrate all the force into a spot the size of the firing pin tip....cap-and-ball needs to cover the area of a percussion cap and nipple...the percussion cap is a bit easier to set off, but the area is so much bigger...most center fires and rim fires will run right with a bit weaker spring than a percussion.

Check out the sticky on Colt disassembly at the top of this forum.

Norseman · « **Reply #13 on:** March 29, 2005, 02:24:49 PM »

Well, here we go. I decided to call Dixie Gun Works and told them the problem. The gun smith was a man named Jesse. He said he would mail me a new mainspring that he said was "thicker" (I presume he meant stronger), but it needed to be ground at the top to match the length of the origninal. Then remove and replace (I will utilize the sticky in this post). Well, I thought that was cool. I will first check out the incoming Tresco/Ampco replacement nipples, if that works...well thats great. If not... the thicker-heavier mainspring is coming from Dixie Gun Works.
It's a bit of a bummer having to go through this, but it is really interesting to me. It makes you figure out the inner workins of the cap and ball Colts. I never bought a car that didn't have bugs to be worked out, or modern guns for that matter. Soon I will be blazin away like I did 25 years ago. This time with a .44 vice a .36 and I'm chompin at the bit like a kid. Boy do I have a bunch of stories with that old cheapo .36 brass frame Colt replica...............

IntrepidWizard · « **Reply #14 on:** March 29, 2005, 02:30:05 PM »

I don't think you need to go through all the stuff you have done,Cock it and see if there is play in the cylinder,let the hammer down with your thumb and then release the hammer about a 1/2 inch from the nipple,also tear business cards up to fit the cylinder-nipple slots and cock and pull the trigger on the cards.take two aspirin and call me in the morning.

1851 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 29, 2005, 10:59:41 PM »

Quote from: IntrepidWizard

I don't think you need to go through all the stuff you have done,Cock it and see if there is play in the cylinder,let the hammer down with your thumb and then release the hammer about a 1/2 inch from the nipple,also tear business cards up to fit the cylinder-nipple slots and cock and pull the trigger on the cards.take two aspirin and call me in the morning.

I got my replacement spring today and it solved the problem. It's thicker steel than the stock one. I could have bent the stock to give it a new "memory" and that might have worked as well. No big deal, now I have a spare on hand.

So how is cocking the hammer and pulling the trigger going to solve the problem? That was the problem (in my case anyway). I can always use the asprin :wink:

Norseman · « **Reply #16 on:** March 30, 2005, 02:45:51 AM »

Hey 1851... I am glad you worked your problem out! Did the new mainspring need to be trimmed for fit? Dixie is sending me a thicker one and said it might be a little longer and would need to be ground down from the top to match the old one. Did you have to do this, and was it easy to remove and replace?

mec · « **Reply #17 on:** March 30, 2005, 02:55:00 AM »

All the stuffers the companies put in with their black powder guns recommend #11 caps and tens fit all of mine better. A friend has a couple of revolvers that partially recock on firing. This initiates cylinder rotation and throws timing off. He got a heavier hammer for his navy and this didn't help. Then ordered some Treso nipples and they fixed the problem. Number tens fit them better too.

I order springs and other parts from VTI gunparts and/or Cimarron. They usually have what I want in stock and so far, if one is out of a part the other has it. My own Uberti 60 Army has the lightest action/springs I've found yet but it is completely reliable.

1851 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 30, 2005, 03:47:47 PM »

The spring I got from DGW did need to be trimmed a little in length. It isn't hard to replace, just a screw attaching it to the grip frame. I had to experiment with the shape of the bend of the spring to get the right amount of tension on the hammer. The spring is 2x as thick as the stock one. I took it out today and not one mis-fire, worked great - nice shootin' gun too. I think you'll really like your Uberti once it gets going.

Norseman · « **Reply #19 on:** March 31, 2005, 05:04:38 AM »

Hey 1851,

How much did you have to actually trim off the mainspring from the top? Did you use a grinding stone? How much of a hassle?
My Tresco/AMPCO nipples should be in any day now as well as the mainspring from Dixie. Of course I am now thinking about leather for the Uberti 1860. I am thinking about the Oklahoma Leather "Slim Jim" with matching belt. This will acompany me with my Lyman Great Plains Rifle in .54. For re-enactment kinda stuff, I guess I will be an old time trapper left over from the fur trapping days still carrying the "Hawken", with an 1860 Colt Army. This will be during the early cowboy days in the 1860's. Not to mention to be used during my hunting/camping forays to the Jefferson National Forrest here in Virginia. Sitting in front of the campfire at night by a stream with the old Colt, waiting for my Dutch Oven as it cooks covered with coals will be a trip! Not to mention a little snort of bourbon...LOL

Can you picture it? Hey...what was that noise beyond that fire? A coyote! Click goes the Colt.....LOL

Norseman · « **Reply #20 on:** March 31, 2005, 05:49:49 PM »

Problem solved. My Tresco nipples came in today. Put them on and not a glitch on caps firing off. CCI#11's work fine, just a slight pinch and they are on real good. Dixie sent me that thicker mainspring but it appears that it's not required. I will use it as a spare. Thanks to all who gave me inputs on this, you guys are great! I will keep you posted when I get to the range and fire the 1860. I will also check on this post because I find it very interesting as well as informative.

In fact this entire site is very interesting.

1851 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 31, 2005, 08:08:10 PM »

Glad to hear your problem's solved. I'd like to hear what you think about it after you take it shooting.

I used a Dremel with a cut-off wheel to take a little of the length of the spring. The part that took the longest was finding the right shape to the bend. I just used a vise and leaned into the spring until I got the right shape. It only takes a slight bit more effort to cock now than before but it falls heavily enough to make a difference.

I think I'll get some Treso's too just for the heck of it. You'd expect, well, hope, a gun that's at the higher end of the price scale would work right out of the box. Oh well, easy enough to fix.

Norseman · « **Reply #22 on:** April 01, 2005, 07:21:58 PM »

Well, I shot the Uberti 1860 today at work in the woods! It was a time constraint thing, I just wanted to check it out. My powder measure was 25 grains, CCI#11 caps, Hornaday .454 balls with some left over Ben Gay-only kiddin...Ok Yoke lube over the balls. I paced off 12 paces which for me is 36 feet after I slapped a Birchwood Casey Shoot N C Target on a huge pine tree. The first shot hit the very top of the target edge 4 inches high from a fine bead sight picture. I adjusted to a major six o'clock hold (4 inches down) and the next five rounds went into the 9 and ten ring into a 1 1/2 ish pushin a 2 inch grouping. I was amazed. The horizontal was dead on. This was on my feet shooting pretty quick because of the time constraint I had.
As I had heard the Colts hit high, I was prepared for it. It is true. I can see now by the mechanics of the Colt design that the wedge has a great influence on the cylinder- barrel gap which in turn influences the sight/elevation in relation to the front sight and the rear sight -the hammer. So, when I re-assemble the pistol, I adjust the gap to .003 (fairly tight) tapping the wedge in, and with a feeler gauge in between the barrel and cylinder to keep it a standard. This way when I really get to play with the Colt... I am prepared. I also realize that this is not a target pistol. But with some fooling around I think that I can squeak the best out of it. I also think point shooting/instinctive shooting is in order as well. So far I am very impressed with the Uberti 1860 Army, exept their nipples are not so good. Those Treso/AMPCO nips are the ticket.
:-D