As a smith, what would you do???

[NimrodRx]

Here's the situation.  I have visited our local gun shop on a monthly basis (minimum) since I moved to this area about a year ago.  I have literally spent thousands of dollars in their shop.  I have gotten to know them fairly well.  

For the most part, I have been very pleased.  The prices are a little more, but I don't mind paying a bit more for the expert advice and service they typically provide.

This morning they called to tell me that my rifle was ready.  I had them install a Timney trigger on my M77.  The rifle is about 15 yrs old and required a little wood shaving to get the tang safety to properly mount.  Figured I'd leave it to the experts.  

When I picked up the rifle today, I was in a hurry.  I tested the trigger and was very pleased.  Nice crisp 2 lb pull.  Just what I wanted.  Cased the rifle and went back to work.

Now, that I have had time to reaquaint myself with the ole girl, I noticed something that wasn't there when the gun went to the shop - two scratches.  One that is more of a gouge :cry:  :cry: .  

I am 110% that these occurred while the gun was out of my care.  Can I prove it?  Of course not.  Even if I could, my guess is that they're not liable, probably have a disclaimer on the receipt or something.

What would you guys do?  How common is this?  I'm thinking of going in tomorrow and making the owner aware that this happened.  I don't expect anything, I just kinda want them to know about it.  I also have to consider that they're pretty much the only game in town and I will likely be doing business there for years.  I don't want to piss anybody off.  However, I am not pleased and feel compelled to let them know it.

What do you guys think?  Am I wasting my time by taking the rifle back?  If there are any smiths/owners here, what would you do if a customer came to you with such an issue?

Thanks.

[KSR]

Most smiths will fill out a condition evaluation sheet on every firearm
that comes into their shop to work on. If they did it should desribe any
noticablely obvious damage to your gun when it came in.
Be polite and tell them you are quite happy with the trigger but that you
are certain the damage was not there before it was brought into their
shop.

[GGaskill]

Although not something to do intentionally, this situation will let you really evaluate the shop and its business practices.  If they get aggressive and obnoxious about it, I would find another place to conduct my business, even mail order if necessary.  If they value your business and handle it professionally and take care of the problem, then they deserve your business.  UPS goes everywhere; you are never a captive customer.

[victorcharlie]

What would be the correct way to handle this?   If it happened to me, I'm not sure what would make it right......What do you want the smith to do?

[NimrodRx]

For me, an "I'm sorry, that was our fault" would probably have gone a long way with me.  Refunding me part of the $65 I was charged for installation would have went even further.  Especially, considering I was quoted $45.  The extra $20 came in because they had to trim some wood to get the tang safety to fit propperly.  Neither of these happened.

The owner tried to rub/polish it out and used a little stain.  However, it wouldn't take the stain.  It looks better, but it is still there.  He told me to leave the rifle and he'd have the smith take a look at it.  I chose not to do this.  It took two months to get the trigger put on, and I don't want to chance being with out my 22-250 now that the woodchucks are starting to snoop around.

The up side, I'm now shooting dime sized 3 shot groups at 100 yrds.  Never did that with the factory trigger.

[gunnut69]

Unfortunately accidents happen.  Behaving well when things go right is easy, when they don't go right that's when we're tested..  I would certainly let the shop know the damage occured and judge their reaction.  If they ask to see the gun and perhaps to repair it and you say no, you really don't have any complaints.

[NimrodRx]

I agree gunnut.  

Accidents do happen.  Then again, when they do happen, I expect to be told about them, and I expect an effort be made to fix them.  I shouldn't have had to point out the accident.  It should have been pointed out to me.  These scratches were significant enough that whoever put them there, knew they did it.  The rifle was as near to mint as you can get when I left it at the shop.  

Believe me, I have worked retail.  I know how unreasonable customers can be.  I was very polite.  

Though I am pleased that the owner offered to attempt to fix the rifle, I'm disappointed that it came to me having to ask.  I expected more from this shop.  

Two months to install a trigger + 2 scratches (that I had to bring to their attention) = looking for a new smith.

[BuzzKill]

Hey Nim-

Too bad to hear about your gun, wrt the scratches.  Trigger sounds sweet.
Your correct, there is no good answer to your problem.  You hope that the smith acknowledges the scratches, and at least appologizes and attempts to either credit you back some $ or tries to fix the scratches.  Unfortunatley, completely removing the scratches may be very tricky.  Like any other finished wood, there are several layers of sanding, staining, protective coating, etc. and one just can't easily fix a small area to blend with the rest.
Try these steps to self-fix the scratches:

1.  If the scratches look like bare wood, i.e. the top layer of stained wood has been cut into, then try wiping on a tiny amount of similar colored stain to first bring the wood grain back to the correct shade.  This may also help fill the scratch 'void' by raising the grain slightly.  Sounds as if the smith tried this step and you said it didn't take.  That may also be a good sign that the wood grain and/or protective finish was never really 'cut', but rather dented in the length of the scratch.
2.  Lightly dampen a cotton rag or wash clothe with warm water.  Apply it over the scatch and the run a clothes iron over the rag.  Do this first on lower settings and for shorter periods of time, checking the stock.  Then go hotter if needed. You are hoping to swell and raise the grain and also swell the finsish coats to fill the void.  This step will often do the trick, just go slow and ckeck the stock often.
3.  If either of these steps has helped raise the wood/finish and possibly done too much, lightly sand the spot with very very fine grit paper or steel wool.
4.  If you know exactly what protective finish was applied to the stock (poly, wax, paste, etc.) use a small amount of this to polish over the spots, buffing to match.  If you don't know what was used, use polishing wax on the area and buff it out.  The wax will best match existing and as a plus it can be removed if needed.

Hopefully these help.  If not, come up with some good battle scar stories for them.  BuzzKill

[gunnut69]

I really can't defend the smiths damaging your stock but you should give them the benefit of the doubt, he may not have known the damage wass done.  It may have happened in the stores storage area, etc..  The store owner did appoligize and offered to fix it..  you turned him down.  Two months is a long time to wait just to install a trigger but perhaps there were other jobs inline in front of you..  Right now I wouldn't even look at a new job for 2 months...  I'm fairly sure that if you'd have explained your needing the rifle and that it was their fault, you could have gotten expedited service..  If you complain about a problem and are offered a solution and refuse it,, there is no room for further complaint.  They had an accident and offered to repair it.  You refused their offer.  What is it you wanted them to do?  I don't believe they did anything on purpose and accidents DO happen..

[Judson]

Accidents do happen but in my shop I would have to offer to replace the stock or repair it at no charge.    Sure things go wrong at time but as a gunsmith it is our responsibility to correct our mistakes and not at the owners expense.    The damage should have been pointed out to you and you should have been given your options as to how to take care of it.    
    mabe some of you do not agree but that is how it is in my shop.

[victorcharlie]

Judson......where are you located......that's customer service the way is ought to be!

[NimrodRx]

gunnut, actually, as I said in my previous post, I would have appreciated an apology.  That never happened.

I'm really not complaining.  I'm past that.  Just sharing my experience.  In fact, I never even "complained" to the owner.  I simply told him what had happened.  I put the ball totally in his court.  I gave him the opportunity to show me what level of service I could expect.  

Yes, they did tell me that if I left the gun, he'd have the smith take a look at it.  I just wasn't comfortable with that.  They already showed me how they handle guns.  I won't leave another in their care.  To be honest, when the owner saw my apprehension at leaving the gun again, I kept expecting him to call the smith out from the back room right then and there for him to look at it.  That would have been expedited service.  There is no way that these scratches/dent were put in the gun without someone knowing it.  

Yes, accidents happen.  We can't control that.  That's why they're called "accidents."  What we can control is how we react to them and handle the consequences.  Believe me, I'm not one of these unreasonable costomers.  I used to work retail.  I know it's tough.  

Buzzkill, thanks for the tips.

[Racepres]

Boy I been watchin' this ... Since I do all of my own work I don't have this situation, but... I also know that "stuff"  happens. My thoughts, FWIW, I try very hard to "support" my local shop (smith) I do not wish for the "only way" to be the local "mart" or a shipping ordeal to a "major" establishment. When that day comes it may just be because the local talent is unreceptive, or perhaps uncaring. No need to be arrogant, ... honesty and professionalism, are all that any of us expect... When some uncaring shops go "out" no amount of whining, and hand wringing, will make up for good old fashioned Integrity.  I'm sure that this thread should have been started by a shop owner P&M ing abt fussy customers and sloppy workers, instead of by a disgruntled customer....  My measly $.02   Marty

[gunnut69]

Sorry friend but you are complaining,, the problem is while you do have a very valid complaint, you had the option of getting the scrathes fixed..  I don't know what the extent of the damages were but it takes very little to scratch a  rifle.  I assure you if I had damaged your rifle and known it I most certainly would have told you about it and the repairs would have been on me.. but if you refused then I don't know what more you could expect..

[NimrodRx]

Well, this just gets better and better....  

While at the range, I only put one round in the rifle at a time.  I never use the clip.  Just pop one in the chamber, fire, wait 60 secs, and repeat...  I never even thought about trying the clip.

Tonight when I tore the rifle down to clean it, I realized that the clip no longer works.  I'm sure you're all familiar with the M77, simply push the button on the inside front of the trigger guard and the clip and any rounds in it drops out.  Right.  Wrong.  Mine will no longer budge.  Tried to pop it down with my finger nail, nothing.  

I can't believe this.  I had a Timney trigger installed.  Hell, I had guys telling me I should do it myself, it's not that big of a deal.  No, I want it professionally done.  I'll take it to my local shop, where I do all my business.  Two months, $145 dollars, two scratches, and a non functioning clip later, I have my rifle back..... :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  

I will be returning to the shop Monday morning.  Now, initially, I asked for nothing.  I let them respond as they saw fit.  This time, I will make my dissatisfaction clear.  I will be polite and professional (as I was last time), but in no uncertain terms, I will make it clear that I am not happy.

What do I expect?  I expect to hear exactly what I used to tell discruntled customers (regardless of who's fault it was) back when I was working retail - "What can I do to make you happy?"

Marty, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.  You think I was arrogant and unprofessional?  Believe me, I support this local shop - my buddy tells me to a fault.  I appreciate and value small independent business enormously.  My backround is in pharmacy.  Though I work in a hospital, I COMPLETELY understand the value of a local neighborhood pharmacy.  Same goes for just about any other type of service, as far as I'm concerned.  I can buy Barnes Expander muzzle loader bullets from Cabella's on line for $20.  What do I do, pay this shop the $30 they're asking.  Bought two boxes within the last month.  That's right, 1/3 more than I can buy them on line.   Six months ago I bought a 20 ga Citori from them.  I WAS (AND I CAN'T STRESS WAS ENOUGH) so close to buying a Browning Medallion safe from the shop.  I did find it for nearly $200 less at one of the "mega stores," but I still had every intention of staying local.  

I really don't think I'm a "fussy customer."  I do not have unrealistic expectations.  I'm willing to pay for service.  And that is exactly what I have done in the past.  Now I'm just paying premium prices for quality I would expect from "Anywhere USA."

IMHO, Judson has it figured out.  Sounds like he would have taken a bath on the cost of replacing my wood.  He isn't so short sighted as to look at it as loosing a couple hundred dollars.  Instead, he realizes he would be gaining a customer for life.  One who has already demonstrated his willingness to pay for service.  Look, I'm a 30 yr old man with a serious habit for firearms and a child who, so far, is showing the same desire.  

Sorry to ramble guys, I'm just a little hot right now.  I'll calm down before I go in there on Monday.  Ya wanna know what my response is going to be if I hear what I want - "what can we do to make you happy?"  

"You can replace that POS scope I currently have on the rifle with the scope of my choice, from your inventory - at dealer cost, no mark up."  It won't cost them a thing.  I will pay whatever they payed for the scope.  Just put it on and bore sight it.

So there you go, I'm already willing to spend more money at the shop, provided they do this.  If they do, I will consider it adequate compensation and probably continue to do all my business there.  If not, I'm probably going to have to start shopping at Gander Mountain :cry: .

Unreasonable?

[gunnut69]

Why does the floorplate fail to open?  The 77's use a 2 piece bottom metal and on occasion if asse\mbled wrong they can be too close together to allow the plate to open.  It happens sometimes when the weapon is disassembled for cleaning.. Loosen and seperate the guard and plate assembly. tighten the front screw first then the rear and the middle just to hold the guard in place..

[Judson]

We are in St. Albans Maine, you can call me at 207-938-3595 or reach me by Email at theworkshop@tds.net
   As for the floor plate, I do not think it is much of a problem.    Loosen the guars screws and tighten down the front screw first and close the floor plate.    If all works then tighten down the rear screw and if things are still fine finally tighten the middle screw.    All that should have been checked prior to you being told your rifle was ready, and the quote you were given, they should have stuck with.    We usually charge around 45 bucks to put a Timney in a Ruger77 but the same 45 will get you a trigger job which gives a pull on a par with a Timney.    I would find a different shop if I were you.

[earschplitinloudenboomer]

When I was "in the buisness" I followed judson's philosophy. In a short time I had buisness comming in from much larger towns, 90 to 100 miles away. If anything got screwed up in my shop, the owner was aprised and the mishap repaired, replaced (at my expense) before it left the shop. The only thing I did require was that the customer look his gun over carefully before paying. This usually took some of my time but I personally went over the repair or work, with the customer. If a gun was returned, I went over the problem with the customer. If work was done which required removal of the stock, the stock was removed for the customers inspection before the gun left the shop, especially for glassing jobs, or ANY inlet work. I commend the shop in this case for attempting to fix the problem but if the damage to the stock was as described, it should have been setteled before the customer paid or picked up the piece. JMO

[Racepres]

Oh my ... I was saying that most "local shops" are arrogant and insensitive... not you.... heck it is not just gunsmiths .... get a problem at the car parts / fix-it shop!!!!   It just seems that the more we try to keep local business in business ... the more they try to prove how much superior and important that they are to us .... Again the shame is that the shop didn't .. 1- do a job correctly...2- take full responsability for the entire process and insist that they would/should make it not just right, but perfect and to your satisfaction.... Marty..

[NimrodRx]

I can only get to the rear guard screw.  The front one is covered by the plate.  Again, the plate won't open.  I suppose I could try to pry it down with a flat head screw driver, but I'm not going that route.  I want to show the folks at the shop what the problem is.  

It doesn't make sense to me.  I have disassembled the gun countless times for cleaning and this has never happened.  I have not disasembled the rifle since I got it back.  This is how it came to me.  

I will let you guys know what I find out in the morning.  Thanks.

[Judson]

I am in the house right now and not in my shop but I think I can help you out.    If I remember correctly there is a pin that holds the floor plate release in place about half way up the front of the trigger guard.    If you remove this pin you can remove both the release and it's spring.   If the floor plate will still not open it is just bound up and comperssing the follower should pop it open.    If you have questions and need help please feel free to call me at 207-938-3595 and I will try to talk you through it!

[NimrodRx]

Here’s how it went down.

Owner – “How are you today?”

Me - “Not good, remember when I stopped in a couple days ago to discuss the scratches added to my rifle.”  

Owner – “Yes.”

Me - “Well, I finally got a chance to get to the range and shoot.  When I went to clean the rifle, I realized that the floor plate wouldn’t open.”

Owner – “Well, let’s have Dave (the smith) take a look at it.”

Dave – “Somebody must have tightened the guard too much.”  He fiddles with it for a couple minutes and can’t get it open.  “Well, have him fill out a ticket.  This is going to take a while.”

Hearing this, I let out a sigh and walk back into the main part of the shop.

Five minutes or so go by and the owner comes back with my rifle.  Hands it to me and says it’s fixed.  Give it a try.

It does appear to be fixed.

Me - “What was the problem?”

Owner – “There was a bunch of fowling around there.”  “It just needed cleaned.”  (I’m thinking fouling? fouling from what?  Doesn’t make sense.)

Me - “I just can’t believe that someone would put a trigger in a rifle and never even check to make sure that the floor plate opens – especially after the rifle was here 2 months, cost me $20 more than I was quoted, and came back to me with two scratches.”  The disgust was very apparent in my voice.  

The owner just looked back at me with a blank stare.  No explanation what so ever.  

I shook my head, put the rifle in the case, and walked out without another word said.  No goodbye, no thank you, nothing.

How short sighted and what a poor business decision.  These are the same people that bi$C# about how Internet sales are hurting them…  Guess what, I’m a new Internet customer.  As for guns, I will make the hour and 15-minute drive to the next shop.  Never again will I give them a dime.

[Judson]

The smith had to take the rifle down to put in the trigger.    He had to put the rifle back togther after installing the trigger.    If there was junk in there (Which I doubt) then he should have cleaned it out!    You need to find a competent gunsmith who takes pride in their work!!!!

[gunnut69]

Perhaps you should concentrate on finding a 'competant' smith first..pride will follow..