I'm not totally confused! Tha hen laughed!

[williamlayton]

I'm not totally confused but kinda. I have been reading a lot about these here 9X23's. Just what is a 9X23 if it's not a 9mm super. Is the main advantage just for race guns and games?
Blessings

[unspellable]

In some places in Europe civilian possesion of firearms chambered for the 9 mm Parabellum is prohibited.  As a work around (legal loophole) there is a 9x23 cartridge with the same OAL and ballistics as the 9 mm Parabellum.   The chamber is lengthened slightly and no other modification of the firearm is required.

[Mikey]

williamlayton:  there are a number of 9mm cartridges of 9x23mm size.  As unspellable indicated, most are of European design but may have preceded the generic adoption of the 9x19 (9mm Luger/Parabellum).  The european 9x23s have been called the 9mm Steyer, the 9mm Largo, and the 9mm Bergman, each designed for use in pistols of the same name, but which became fairly obsolete by the 1950s.  It is a matter of record however that the German pilots who were stationed in Spain during WWII preferred the Astra Modelo 400 chambered in the 9mm Largo (a 9x23mm) as it was more powerful than the 9mm Luger.  In most instances, the 9x23 was a bit more powerful than the 9x19 and took a slightly heavier bullet.  Another 9x23, I believe, was the 9mm Mauser Export, which fired a 128 gn bullet at almost 1300+ something '/sec, and was chambered only in the Broomhandle Mauser pistol.

Now, all that being said, in the US, there are a number of 9mms, none referred to as the 9mm Super however.  There is of course, the 9mm Luger (developed by Georg Luger by lopping the neck off his 7.65mm Luger cartridge), there is a 9x21mm used for sport competition in the race guns, and then there is the Winchester 9x23, which is loaded to the ballistics of the 357 Sig - a 125 gn bullet at about 1425'/sec, which is the accuracy load for the 38 Super, that was originally loaded to - about 1380'/sec with a 130 gn bullet, before liability reared its ugly head and, etc.  

There is a european cartridge named the 9mm Super, I believe, but it is a 9x18 caliber cartridge, same length as the 9x18 Makarov but in 355 (9mm) diameter, not the 360 of the Makarov cartridge.  It was chambered in a Walther Pistol which looked like an oversized PP and is still found in some Walther look-a-likes.  Basically, it is 1 silly millimeter longer than the 380 and not much more powerful.  It was pretty short lived.  

BTW, the Winchester 9x23, or the 38 Super loaded to the Winchester 9x23 specs is about as potent as the famous 357 magnums-125gn-1425'/sec one shot fight stopper and can be carried and fired in any 38 Super, including Colt Light Weight Commanders.  Now, that's a package fer ya.  

OK, that's all I know.   HTH.  Mikey.

[New Hampshire]

unspellable, I believe you are thinking of the 9x18.  To get around the goofy restriction the case was shortened a millimeter, but retains the same OAL as the 9x19 and the same preformance.  But since it is not a 9x19 case or even called 9x19 or 9mm Para they can get away with it.  Tricky tricky   .
Brian M.

[williamlayton]

The winchester 9X23 is the one  I was thinking of or at least the read was that the Winchester brass is  the only brass which can handle this  chambering.
It is suposed to be super fast without some of the liability, ie flash, recoil and flip of the .45, 10mm or ..357. As usual Mikey you got it right.
Is this akin to the .38 super that was preferred in the 1930's to combat armor plating in automobiles used by gangsters? This is a new study fer me and I may be terribly confused.
At any rate, it seems this is a pretty slick little demon.
Blessings

[unspellable]

Now we have a bunch of 9 mm cartridges.  I believe I misspoke about the 9x23.  It's probably a 9x21 the Europeans use as a dodge around the 9 mm Parbellum restriction.  the case has to be longer than the Parabellum in order  to make the conversion simple.  It's easier to ream a chamber a bit longer than to try and shorten it.  Due to the same restriction, the 7.65 Parabellum enjoys more popularity in Europe than in the US.

The 9 mm Mauser was not chambered in the broomhandle.  It was chambered in a later pistol, the desihgn of which borrowed from the broomhandle, but it looks quite different.  It used a bullet of larger diameter than the 9 mm parabellum.

There was a 9 mm Ultra that fell between the 380 and the 9 mm Parabellunm.  It used the standard Parabellum bullet diameter, saw little use, but was the inspiration for the 9 mm Makarov which uses a larger diameter bullet.  It was intended to provide the maximum power level practical in a simple blow back pistol design.

The popular legend has it that the 9 mm Parabellum was based on the 7.65 mm Parabellum.  However the available real evidence suggests that it was actually developed from the 7.65 Borchardt/7.63 mauser case just as the 7.64 Parabellum was.  The first experimental versions of the 9 mm were bottle necked cases.  The straight tapered case we all know and love was about the third experimental version.

However, there's a catch.  When you buy a box of 9 mm Parabellum or 9 mm Luger cartrdiges, they are not the same ones Georg Luger and DWM developed for the Luger.   For some, as yet unknown reason, the industry decided to shorten the OAL.  The SAAMI maximum OAL is the original DWM minimum OAL.  This is the principal cause of the Luger's poor reputation for reliability.  The Luger magazine design depends on the correct OAL to funtion properly.  The front of the cartridge must rest on the front of the magazine, not on the cartridge under it.  (22 LR magazines operate on the same principle in order to accomodate the rim.)

[New Hampshire]

Now we have a bunch of 9 mm cartridges.  I believe I misspoke about the 9x23.  It's probably a 9x21 the Europeans use as a dodge around the 9 mm Parbellum restriction.  the case has to be longer than the Parabellum in order  to make the conversion simple.  

 :oops:  :oops: Ok since we are all coming clean I went back and checked and it IS the 9x21 I/we were talking about.  Well we both learned our lesson eh  :grin: .
Brian M.

[williamlayton]

The 9X23 I have been reading on has the following characteristics:
Velocities--approching 1400 fps and the .357
Low recoil-this is always perception, subjective
low muzzle blast
low muzzle flash
The case best suited to handle this little demon is a Winchester case, the rest seem to lack the heft to handle internal pressures.
Seems the tout of this caliber is an ability to have .357 performance from a 1911 or automatic stage. Some have said the it makes a better race platform and carry option than the .38 super.
It does appear to have some advantages. The 10mm is a better stopper but the 9x23 approaches this platform without the harseness to the shooter.
Anyway, that is what I read, and I was just seeking thoughts.
Blessings