Hey Fred M, would this work?

[handirifle]

I posted this on another topic but thought I'd get your input.

I'd like to see a barrel stub made that would accept the Savage rifle's barrels. We could then custom make any caliber available that the Handi could handle. It would be safe cause the Savages chambered for the short mags have a larger thread lug than all the other barrels. We could then Headspace them as we saw fit. I've actually wondered if we could do that on our own? Start with a shotgun barrel and lug that fits, have it cut and threaded for the Savage barrels, buy the appropiate Savage barrel and lug nut and go-nogo guages and have at it.

What do you guys think?

I was wondering this cause I could easliy make a 223 barrel with a tighter twist rate than 1 in 12. Savage uses 1 in 9.

It (the barrel) would have to have the extractor groove cut into it but seems do-able.  You might not be able to switch other barrels into the stub easily, but you could buy other stubs if need be.

[Fred M]

Handirifle.
Donaldo and I have hashed this subject around to a great extend. The shot gun barrel  section of about 3.5"x1.112 would have to stay to provide support for the lug. The barrel stub would need to be 3.5 inches long and threaded with a very fine thread so you don't loose too much of the chamber wall thickness. The barrel/chamber walls have to stand alone to withstand the chamber pressure if a thread is used.

If you do a search you will find all the calculations. We came to the conclusion that the best way to do it is to ream the barrel stub and silver solder in a new barrel. A stress relieved barrel blank from Green River would be the way to go.

Any other way I believe there is not enough metal to make it safely around, unless you came up with a steel that has a 250K yield strength that is not is not easy avavailable for ordinary mortals.

If you realy want to shoot some long range needles, rebore a 223 to 6mm
and chamber it for the 6x47SM (Swiss Match) or a shortend 6mmRem.
I would prefer a straight 6mmRem with a 1-8' twist.

I think you could rebore a 204 to a 223 with a 217 bore and 4 grooves with a 1-8" twist and use the 204 chamber for a bit more schmack.
That would cost about $260 Can from Ron Smith. A 22 Hornet barrel could be made into a 6mmBR or a 6PPC with any twist you want.

I got a 223 bull barrel ready to go today but it is awfull cold and miserable outside. After shooting it I will decide what to do with it. I have a collection of different ammo to try.

I am also trying my 257 Roberts with the two finalists loads. This rifle is a most pleasant gun to shoot and very accurate. All the loads I tried are between 1/2" and 1"at 100meters.
Not bad for an El cheapo. And I can carry it with the barrel hanging down like a pistlol without touchin the ground.

By the way my website provider did some upgrading and buggered up a whole lot of my recent images, and they don't want to upoad again.
What a jack pot that is. I been playing with the codes but have not found what the trouble is.

[handirifle]

Fred
I THINK I understand.  Are you saying the original barrel (a Savage barrel in this case) does not have enough chamber to support the pressure?  Would that and the NEF steel combined not be enough to hold it?

[Fred M]

Handirifle.
The chamber end of a Handi at 1.110 is already smaller than most regular barrel ends which ar 1.2" to 1.25".

The barrel tenant on most rifles is about 1.076" O.D.and 1.022" in the bottom of the thread so the thread is .027". The 1.022" is the stand alone diameter to contain the pressure of the chamber. Here we talking Rem , Win, wby and many others that decided that this is the minimum steel they need around a chamber.

I suppose this diameter could be made smaller and still be strong enough.

So if you start with a Handi stub of 1.110 and leave 1/10" plus thread your tenant would end up .900 minus the depth of the thread of .027 or about .875" take away the chamber of .470 you end up with a .200" chamber wall while you want at least another 1/10".  So the threading is not strong enough.

If you were to do that you would want to fire a couple of proof loads and chance to split the barrel/chamber

As you may know a thread is a longitudinal compression unit. Any outward pressure has to be retained by tenant,  the coupling or in this case the barrel stub will be in compression only and for it to work it has to have clearance.

Barrel threads are quite loose and can be tightened by hand without being shot loose. I have a switch barrel BR rifle that is easy to remove and put on at the range with a light barrel vise. The twist will keep it tight.

On the other hand when you silver solder the stub and the tenant together they be come one unit again and take the calculated stress.

That and reboring is in my opinion is two ways to go or a custom machined barrel with a new underlug. Of the three options the rebore is the most economical and easiest solution. That is what I do. From a 223 24" bull barrel you can make any caliber with an 06 bolt face or the big BB brutes.

[handirifle]

Dang, dude you do get deep! :eek:

So it seems the receiver that a barrel is screwed into helps contain the pressure from the case as well.  Never had access to a barrel to do any measuring or comparing.  So you're saying that if cut smooth (as in threads machined off) the barrel could be soldered into the stub and that would give sufficient strength?

[Fred M]

Handirifle.

(as in threads machined off) the barrel could be soldered into the stub and that would give sufficient strength?

.

Yes that is basically it.

I am not quite sure how this silver soldering is done. One side gets the flux and the other side is silvered. The sleave is then heat expanded and the cold stub is slid in. This has to be done fast and accurate with practically no clearance. Once the two pieces are together the whole piece is heated to the temperature to melt the silver solder. The heat applied must not change the molecular structure of the steel.

It is very similar to sweating copper pipes together with couplings.

Don't forget when you get a chambered rifle barrel, the chamber wont be deep enough fora Handi, since most cartridge heads are recessed in the bolt head so the extractor can slide over. A new barrel without a chamber would be best. Pretty tough to find any short cuts, eh.

Another thing most reamers are not made to cut any more than needed.
I found out about that on the 257 Roberts the back end of the reamer had to be recut to make the chamber the full length of the cartridge. It costs $60 to have a reamer reground. When you order a reamer for a Handy barrel you have to specify the the lenth of the cut.

I have a reamer for the 25 Hunter and would like to use a 243 case but the reamer will not cut deep eneugh. So the long 25 Hunter never materialized, for a mater of a 1/4".

[handirifle]

Yea, sounds a lot deeper than I thought.  That's the way my ideas usually turn out.  Seemed a lot easier in my head. :roll:

[Donaldo]

Yep, Me and Fred have discussed this to no end.  He is right.  There is just not enough material left for safety reasons.  Unless you stay with the 223 diameter cartridge range.  It seems to be an easy process but there are problems.   I have dreamed of several calibers that I would like but this is just not the expedient route to take.  Threading just does not work, unless it is a tapered thread, because it does nothing for containing the pressure.  Hey Fred, Have you thought about a tapered thread?.  The idea still burns in the back of my head.   :lol:

[Fred M]

Donaldo.
Don't know what a tapered thread is. But one thread that could be used is an Acme thread. If you have seen a screw in choke by Brily the ones he put into those thin barreled  SxS. These are square threads and very shallow about .002" deep. A 1/10" sleave would leave enough meat. These threads only need to withstand the back thrust the cartridge.

You figure it out, how many threads you need 2 thou deep to keep 4-5 tons in place. Using the compressive strength of soft barrel steel. This would have to be done on a precision lath with no plus or minuses.

Hey, we are talking mula again. Not consistent with the Handi clan.

If you call Brily they would tell you if you can get enough threads into 4" to hold the 10K.lbs back thrust.

I am simply too tired to do calculations like that anymore. A mechanical engineer with design programs could do it in jiffy.

The Brily threads are very close fitted and the changing of chokes takes forever, These chokes are made from some tough material they are super thin. They are a work of art and they don't blow the end of the barrels off like some did.

Next time I go to my friends machine shop I will ask him.

I think this Brily thread and choke is patented? The inside threading tool is another hunk of mula. Besides how many customers would share the cost. This is nothing but a pipe dream.

Nice to talk about but that is just about it.

Just rebore a Handy that is the only reasonable way to go. The 24" 223 bull barrel wil do any thing the Handi can handle. On top of that you gat a fine bore and chamber. I am really pleased with that 257 Roberts.

[Donaldo]

Hey Fred,
Yep, I know.  It is not realistic but you know..... we got to have our pipe dreams.  I just wish NEF would sell unchambered barrels, but I understand why they won't do that.  I just spent a bunch of time, not much money, to put a bench rest fore end and another lug on my handi barrel.  Put the lug as close to the hinge as possible.  Took pics of what I did and everything.  Even put a 24x Sightron scope in the handi.  What did it get me...... Nothing.  Did not improve the accuracy at all.  And I just thought it would.  Well I guess a sows ear is just a sows ear after all.  I have another project going now so have lost interest in the handi for now.  Am working on a savage action bench rest rifle.  Just got it finished.   Took it out for the first time in the graphite fiber stock.  It did not shoot as good as it did in the slave stock.  Guess what.... I got the long and short screws that mount the scope rail mixed up.  The scope came loose during the shooting session.  Could not believe I made such a stupid mistake.  All of 50 rounds for naught.  Oh well.  It does make life interesting.  

[quickdtoo]

Hey Fred,
  Guess what.... I got the long and short screws that mount the scope rail mixed up.  .....  

Hmmm, what long and short screws? Don't confuse me, now!!! :? All the screws that come with H&R rails are the same length....I just looked at a package I just got today since H&R forgot to include an Ultra rail with my UltraComp barrel... :?

If you shortened some screws because they appeared too long, it's not the screws, the holes are full of loctite from H&R, see the new post in the FAQ. :wink:

[Fred M]

Quick.
I think he is talking about a Savage rail, not the same as the H&R??
Longer screws in the back than on the receiver ring.

[quickdtoo]

Oh! :oops:

[Fred M]

Donaldo.
Yes I know these Handis can be taxing. They are the most finicky gun ever. My 257 Roberts reacts to a 1/2 gr of of powder. What I thought was to be my finalist load turned out just a waste of time in a freezing wind. Three out of four rifles shot like you know what.

One of my loads for my 25 Hunter BR rifle was too hot and and got stuck had to bang away with the heel of my hand to open the bolt and broke that tiny extractor. Two stupid mistakes in a row.

Tried to fire form 100 6mm ppc from 220Russ, did not seat the bullet out  quite far enough to jam them tight and the firing pin moved the case ahead and did not fire the shell. Thes cases are quite loose in the chamber.

I got a Sightron scope on it and like it quite well, had to send the first one back and they send me a new one. How is that 24x.