Poll

which is it?

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Voting closed: April 30, 2005, 12:04:08 PM

Author Topic: a not so happy range report.  (Read 1218 times)

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Offline lostsniper308

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« on: April 30, 2005, 12:04:08 PM »
I swear this H&R hates me...not really but its getting annoying.
 Well i had adjusted the fore-end screw on The H&R .308 Ultra and had 10 shots @50yrds staying in the same area no more than 1-14/16"wide and 2-3/4" up from center coulda been better had i not been unusually jumping even when just staring down the scope, i'd just kinda twitch kinda, and I had been shakin' a bit from "tres petite" malnutriton and freezing hands "It's SNOWING IN MAY!!!!!!!!!". right back to the report, after that i switched from 150gr American Eagle to 150gr Federal Power-Shok for just 3 rounds then left. 1st shot was left 1" and 1" up, 2nd shot went on the next target over!! right bout 3-4" or so, 3rd up 2-1/4" and left 1-14/16". I was plenty disgusted then, how can that happen!?!?!?!?!!? maybe i jerked just right?  

p.s. the Power-shok group i fired was at the upper right smaller target (one of them Miller Genuine Draft targets wtih diamond targets) 17x11" target.
B Co. 1-22Inf 1st BCT 4th Infantry Division
OIF 08-09 out of the army now

Offline Mac11700

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« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2005, 12:43:32 PM »
I'd say...add another answer to your poll....both ammo and shooter...

If your shaking...your groups will show it...next time...let someone else shoot for you...I've done that before just to see if it's me or the gun...or the ammo...or the countless other things that can effect your group size...

Even if everything with you is ok...your rifle just may not group 1 paticular ammo worth a durn...no matter how many other rifles it shoots good for you in...

I tried both ammo choices of your before in both of my 308's ...1 bull barrel...and 1 standard barrel...niether one would group inside 1-1/2" with that ammo...what I have found is for both of the ones I've had...the regular Winchester power point 150 grainers do rather well...as does Federal match ammo...and Winchester's Supreme 165 grain STBT...

Other than that..a smooth pull all the way thru on the trigger is a must...and having a reasonble trigger pull helps like you wouldn't believe...


Good Luck  :D

Mac
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Offline mt3030

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« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2005, 01:09:12 PM »
I don't know where to start.
1. You adjusted forearm from what to what? How did the rifle shoot before you started messing with your forearm adjustments?
2. Is your base tight? From the factory all that I have checked were not tight enough.
3. Are your rings tight?
4. Is your scope trustworthy? (new,used,known history?)
5. How many rounds have gone the barrel since your last GOOD cleaning?
6. Why are you twitching as you look down the scope?
7. Why are you describing your bullet point of impact (POI) as inches up and sideways? This is usless for evaluating group size. Group size is what we are looking for. If we have group size we don't care where it is in reference to center of target. Scope adjustments will take care of that. First find center and size of group. (Group size = center to center measurement of furthest shots. This is just one way to measure group size, I'm sure you'll hear of others.)
8. If you are starving, why are you wasting your ammo?? Go get something to eat and continue this another time.
9. If you are freezing, why are you wasting your ammo? Go get warm and continue this another time.
10. When you are fed, warm, snow storm is passed, you've checked to see if everything is tight, settle on ONE brand/weight to continue your testing. This will give you a reference against which you can judge further ammos.
11. Do you have a good solid platform to shoot from? Solid rest both front and rear? This is to help eliminate as much as the humam factors (like twitching) as possible.
12. Trigger control? Breath control?
You've exhausted this old man. I'm sure some else will pick it up from here.
Hope you have a better day.
Wally
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Offline lostsniper308

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« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2005, 01:28:00 PM »
the forend is tightened with an O-ring to just after compresssing ring.  I did post group size 10 shots @50yrds staying in the same area no more than 1-14/16" loctite on the screws, Nikon Prostaff 3-9x40 new, sandbags on butt and behind hinge/pivot point. I can do proper breathing and trigger, and i shoot as much as possible, Snug/tight Leupold Rifleman med height rings
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Offline mt3030

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« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2005, 02:27:53 PM »
Did you shoot the rifle for group before adding the o-ring? I take it you were not satisfied with it's performance. A high percentage of these rifles shoot better without any o-rings, spacers, rubber bumpers or washers under their forearms. My 308, 243 and 25-06 shot better with a naked forearm, snugged tight. This is such a popular subject it could be that some shooters are jumping on the forarm before checking if its needed.

If you can routinely shoot 1 14/16 inches at 50yds, then this just about a 4 inch group at 100. (The distance most evaluations are make at.) Now, most of the Handi 308's will do better. But this is a good point to start trying other loads. Shoot 3 shot groups with the same crosshair hold. Forget how many inches you are up or left of anything. Just so the group is on paper. Now mesure your group. Record same. Let barrel cool. Repeat x 2. Average the three groups and that will tell you what you can expect from THAT load. Clean barrel. Foul barrel, repeat with different ammo.
Each rifle is a law onto itself. Some 308s will shoot better with 150, 165 or 180. I have found that most I have worked with did pretty well with 165. But you have to try each, unless the first load fills your expectations. What are you expecting from this rifle? Big game hunting? Target punching? Varmit shooting? The magical 1 inch rifle is desired by everyone, but in reality most big game could be taken with a 2 inch rifle. If big game is your goal, it is not far from your current under 4 inch to the needed 2 inch. You could very well be there with just finding the correct ammo. And remember that as you shoot/test/clean, you are breaking in that new barrel, and this could start shrinking your groups. Not to mention the benifit of additional experience.
Hope this helps.
Wally
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Offline Mac11700

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« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2005, 03:23:27 PM »
Like was said...if your shaking your groups go to H#!! in a handbasket...your trigger pull has to be smooth all the way back till it stops...not just letting the trigger break and releasing...if you don't... your groups open way up...and.... between your invoulentary shudders from being cold &  hungry....and the snow  ( the snow causes eye distraction and breaks your concentration when staring at a target)...then... most likely your failed to pull all the way thru on the trigger smoothly...( you yank it...and shot someone eles target next to you)...  this is most likely why your groups opened up some .....and like I said before if ......( I don't know for sure) but.. if...your rifle doesn't like your ammo selection...it's not going to group well...


Try shooting  when it's not snowing...your not hungry...your not shivering...and you can concentrate on what the heck your doing...otherwise your just sending bullets down range towards your target... now..clean your rifle completely...use the search feature and find out how to do this...and remember...we all have " BAD" days at the range...your not alone in this...if your not physicly up to it...don't expect to shoot your best...a good hot bowl of Quaker Oats and some honey on it...will give you plenty to go on when your shooting...it will stay with you...and take along a thermos of hot chocalote...that will help you keep warm...even if it's in the 50's or 60's...a light weight pair of shooting gloves works wonders for cold hands...it works for handleing a hot shotgun as well...I use a pair of Bob Allens light weight leather ones...for trap and skeet & sporting clays...and for shooting rifles I picked up a pair of 10X at Walmart for $9.00...they work great...and you can still feel the trigger nicely when wearing them...


You asked on another thread here how to tweak your rifle...I'll make a suggestion...try tweaking yourself ..and your shooting regime first.. then worry about your rifle....we all go to alot of trouble to make our rifles shoot good...and worry over minute details with them...choosing different ammos and tweaking them in all..but we all neglect taking care of ourselves...one way or another before shooting......and... a-lot of times when go shooting...we aren't in the best mental and physical condition.. Soooo...to correct that....eating properly before shooting...and wearing the proper clothing and apparal is the first step to becoming a better shooter...

One last thing...I apologize if I sound critical...you asked what we thought...and I'm giving it to you the best I know how to...I'm sure you would rather here it straight up...then to make up some BS story for ya...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline lostsniper308

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« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2005, 04:01:01 PM »
I like straight truth and opinions. I am going to try some different loads someday when i get more than half-hour's shooting time. I remember Federal Power-Shok doing the same as these American Eagle @50 without the O-ring so it's quite possible the rifle likes AmEagle more than Power-shok with the ring. I plan to buy a complete amount of materials to reload tomorrow so i'll (once it comes) try a few different loads. (Sierra Game-king 165-168 not sure which it is, Hodgdon powder (need help with type for target/big game), and Federal Primers, as well as brass, ect of course. But again i get one half hour that's it per week cause i don't drive and work till 3pm Sat and it closes at 4pm (1/4-1/2 driving time) lastly since all the stuff won't arrive for a while i'll try the Power-Shok with ring @ different tightness and then same without ring. only got 17rnds so goin to be difficult.
B Co. 1-22Inf 1st BCT 4th Infantry Division
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Offline lostsniper308

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« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2005, 04:27:03 PM »
well ya know i can't go this coming SAturday and reloading equipment should come by then, if not then within the next week, so i'll have ample time to make 100rnds of handcrafted ammo, albeit this'll be the first time i got a manual along on order and a natural comfort and should be able to make some good rounds.
B Co. 1-22Inf 1st BCT 4th Infantry Division
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Offline Nightrain52

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« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2005, 05:55:03 PM »
A while back I responded to a similar post someplace. Have you checked out the parallax on your scope. I think most centerfire scopes have it set at 100yds if you don't have an adjustible objective on the scope. The problem comes when you have to break the action open to reload you lose the cheek plant on the stock thus moving your eye and the parallax in the scope will throw the next shot off by not having the same sighting plane as the shot before. If you look thru the scope and center the crosshair on a target and very slightly move your head and the crosshair moves too that is parallax. This is a simple explanation as it is a lot more detailed than my explanation,
FREEDOM IS WORTH FIGHTING FOR-ARE YOU WILLING TO DIE FOR IT--------IT'S HARD TO SOAR LIKE AN EAGLE WHEN YOU ARE SURROUNDED BY TURKEYS

Offline lostsniper308

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« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2005, 10:54:50 AM »
yea im familiar with Parallex. My best estimate as far as shooter trouble is im subconsiously fearing the recoil cause i can shoot a .22 at 150yrds and pick off Blackbirds.
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Offline mag41vance

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« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2005, 02:49:16 PM »
Quote from: lostsniper308
yea im familiar with Parallex. My best estimate as far as shooter trouble is im subconsiously fearing the recoil cause i can shoot a .22 at 150yrds and pick off Blackbirds.


  parallax, as mentioned would be a concern as the scope you mentioned is a 100 yard set parallax, but the main thing you need to do is get over your fear of recoil.
  If you can't get over that fear, you may want to change your graybeards screen name to "lost and not a sniper" :wink:
  Being scared of recoil, is a recipe for poor shooting. A .308 shouldn't be a recoil concern.

   Good luck
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Offline mitchell

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« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2005, 03:12:33 PM »
i think mag41vance is right . i looked at your profile and i see that your 16 now i don't know how your built but if your not very big i do know a 308 and wop you pretty good. you may want to look into  a 7mm-08 ,243 or something that doesn't kick that hard so that you don't fear it as much. but your going to have to learn to beat you fear sooner or later. the way i was taught by my dad (with a 12ga sluggun @ 12) was just to soke it up you know its going to hit you know its going to hurt but you have to get that bullet where it belongs . and another thing you can do is start shooting a lot standing up with a rest (like lean on a tree or pole) but most of all just shoot a lot go make some cheap reloads or by some milsurplus (although they probably wont shoot well) and shoot every day you can. the more you shoot the more you'll learn to let the gun just move you instead of trying to stop the gun from moving.
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Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2005, 03:39:44 PM »
You can find out if you're flinching by having someone else load the rifle out of your sight so you don't know whether it's loaded or not...if you jump at the fall of the hammer on an empty chamber, it's obvious what the problem is, in part at least.
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Offline dgii

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« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2005, 06:09:26 PM »
If you belong to a club, see if they have a shooting instructor, they might be a help.  We can give advice from a far, but none of us may be right.  Since I believe you said your going to start reloading, try a puplished reduced recoil load.  If recoil is something you believe may be hurting your shooting.  In general lighter bullets and slower bullet velocity produce less felt recoil.  I am sure there is a formula that someone on the sight could share with us, if we asked.  Just read and read some more on reloading and be safe.   Keep a log of every box you load, helps when you go to try and load them again.

Offline handirifle

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« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2005, 06:19:49 PM »
What they said, in fact I'd reccomend a 223.  Great round accurate and very little recoil.  Learn to shoot something you're NOT afraid of when you pull the trigger.  It's not a cut down from anyone ,just sound shooting advice.

Everyone has to learn to overcome recoil and experience is the best teacher.
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Offline Nightrain52

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« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2005, 05:14:11 AM »
I will ask another question. Is this your first 30 caliber centerfire rifle? As the others have said recoil may be a problem if the rifle is beating you up pretty bad. Also don't forget to wear hearing protection if you don't already. :D
FREEDOM IS WORTH FIGHTING FOR-ARE YOU WILLING TO DIE FOR IT--------IT'S HARD TO SOAR LIKE AN EAGLE WHEN YOU ARE SURROUNDED BY TURKEYS

Offline myarmor

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« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2005, 06:09:19 AM »
Quote from: handirifle
What they said, in fact I'd reccomend a 223.  Great round accurate and very little recoil.  Learn to shoot something you're NOT afraid of when you pull the trigger.  It's not a cut down from anyone ,just sound shooting advice.

Everyone has to learn to overcome recoil and experience is the best teacher.

Good call-I used to have problems with recoil myself. But extensive shooting with 223 as well as SKS, got rid of that problem.  Not flenching and seeing the end result of your hit, is a great thing.
Also inline with what Mac said, I believe we expect too much out of ourselves, when we aren't even prepared enough-be it physically, or mentally. A good meal and relaxed calm shooting will help a ton.
Plus we all want to get our MOA shooting, and we want it right now! :)
It can get very frustrating and you can lose sight of why you are there-To have fun with it :-)

Offline lostsniper308

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« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2005, 02:24:54 PM »
i aint too little for .308 I think it's coming from having been scope bit a couple times. I've fired a variety of rifles before this one including and M1 Garand, M91-30 Mosin, Mauser 98k, M44 Mosin, Lee-Enfield, .44 Mag revolver, and many more oh and a M1A.
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Offline lostsniper308

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« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2005, 03:04:11 PM »
off main topic but rather than a new thread. anyone got good .308 loads?
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Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2005, 03:08:20 PM »
Your best option would be to use the search function at the top of the page, select the NEF/H&R Centerfire forum from the drop down to look just in this forum.
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Offline lostsniper308

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« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2005, 04:55:59 PM »
ok, and im using spent casings as snap caps to practice a nice clean full trigger squeeze. My guess is here i add smooth, quick enough rearward pressure and when shooting a rapid pull that varies in consistancy.
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