Best Caliber for 1-gun, 2-Event Cowboy Lever Silhouette?

[Jason]

I've been shooting smallbore cowboy lever action silhouette for a few months now and I even shoot my wimpy little Marlin 39a at the pistol cartridge targets, too. This last match, I rang those rams well but couldn't knock them down, even with Velocitors. As much a "fun" thing as shooting at the pistol cartridge targets with a .22lr is, I would like to actually be able to knock them down when I hit them. I would also like to be able to shoot the "long range" cowboy lever action match at another range occasionally. That brings me to my question. What, in your opinion, would the perfect caliber be for shooting both the shorter pistol cartridge match and the long range cowboy lever match?

While considering this, I have wavered as low as a 38/357 and as high as a 44Special/44Mag. I would ideally like to find a centerfire copy of my Marlin 39a with a 24" barrel, pistol grip stock, and checkered wood. Unable to find that combo, I have resigned myself to settling for only two of those. After looking around for a while, I noticed a Marlin 1894FG in 41Mag. Up until that point, I hadn't even considered a 41, but now I am. It qualifies by the NRA rules, as it's definitely a "rimmed pistol cartridge with a flat-nosed bullet." It also flies a bit flatter than the 44 and hits with a bit more authority than the 357. That 1894FG only has a 20" barrel, but it has the pistol grip stock, which I shoot a bit better with, and checkered wood that I really want. What do you think?

[Sixgun]

I think the 41 is a good choice.  I shot a 44 mag for PCCR and it was too much.  I now use a 357 and since it is marginal for CR I use my model 94 30-30.

If you want to shoot that 39a for PCCR, try some Aguila SSS 60 gr bullets.  They will knock down the rams.  I only use them on the rams and have knocked down every one I have hit with them.

Sixgun

[ajj]

Aren't the smallbore half-size rams supposed to be set "soft" with the back quarter of the feet hanging off the rail or did I imagine this?

[Jason]

The smallbore rams aren't a problem to knock down. It's the pistol cartridge rams that I'm having trouble with. Since I don't have any lever guns other than a Marlin 39a (.22lr) and a 336C (in 30/30), I am currently shooting the pistol cartridge match with the 39a. I'm going to try one more time to knock the rams down with Velocitors, but I don't expect to have a lot of success.

[Nobade]

A few of the guys here are using the Marlin 1894 in .357 mag, shooting 38 spl. cases and the RCBS 200gr. flatnose rifle bullet over 2400 or 296. It's super accurate and never rings the bigbore rams. You could load it with 158s or whatever shoots best for the pistol cartridge matches as well. Never seen anybody with a .41, but I'd expect it to work just fine though I bet that 35 cal rifle bullet is travelling faster at 200M than a 220 gr. or so 41 cal pistol bullet even though it started out faster.

[rn122]

Jason:  I also shoot PC with my 22, but have been using Aguila 60gr. sss for both pigs and rams.  It'll definitely take the pigs, and only occasionally ring the rams.  You'll have to try and see if your 39 will be able to stabilize these bullets; my yellow boy has no problems, but I have seen them key hole with a fieldmaster, 1022 and an old Rem auto.  Downsides to this ammo:  stinks, and is dirty.  

As for shooting 200 meter matches, your 30-30 will be just fine.  Most of the competitors at the Nats last yr shoot this caliber.  You need to go heavy, 170gr.  I've seen the 150s ring rams very frequently.  Other calibers I've seen are:  45-70, 38-55, 35 Rem, 44 mag, 357 mag.  I've been told by people who have done a lot of experimenting with the calibre that the 357 is unreliable for the rams, even with the heavy bullets.  Most of the shooters at our club are using the 44mag for both PC and rifle.  Upside of this:  just one gun for 2 matches.  Downside, maybe:  more recoil than necessary for PC.  300gr bullets, jacketed or plated, NOT cast lead, for 200 meter rams.  Hornady xtp and Rainiers are popular choices.  Your choice of powder:  296, H110, H4227, 2400, or something else in that burning range.  This load is pretty stout.  Thank heavens you'll just shoot 10 shots in a 40 shot match.  For the turkeys, pigs and chicks, they use their 100 meter loads:  200, 240gr bullets and a fast powder.  Titegroup seems the powder of choice here.

[Jason]

rn122,

Thanks a lot for all that info. I don't have any trouble with anything except the PC rams with the Velocitor ammo. Since I already have the 30/30, I would prefer not to buy a new gun just to knock down a few more a single animal in the pistol cartridge match. Maybe the SSS ammo from Aguila will do the trick. Aguila only lists 950fps for the muzzle velocity of that ammo, though, so I'm not sure it's going to knock down the rams better than the 40gr Velocitors that have 1435fps muzzle velocity. The Velocitors are listed as having of 110 ft-lbs energy at 100yds and the Aguila SSS load is listed as 86 ft-lbs at the same distance. The proof is in the pudding, of course, and I'll try them just to be sure.

[Sixgun]

I tried  Velocitor ammo on the Pistol Cartridge rams and it was not as accurate as the Aguilas and rang most of the rams that were hit.  Go with the Aguilas.  It is momentum, not volicity that knocks the rams down.

Given the volicities that you have listed for Velocitors and AguilsSSS:

Velocitor   1435 fps at muzzle  = 1039fps at 100 meters
Pound second =  1039 X 40 = 41560 / 226000 = .183 pound seconds.

Aguila SSS  950 fps at muzzle = 862 fps at 100 meters
Pound second =  862 X 60 = 51720 / 226000 = .228 pound seconds.

Aguila has a 4.5 pound second advantage.

It works on paper and I have used them on rams and they do the job unless the rams are hard set or the wind holds them up.

Sixgun

[Jason]

Sounds like the SSS rounds are getting more than one nod for being able to take down the PC rams. As I am a little unhappy with how much the PMC ammo that I'm currently using for cowboy lever shooting gunks up my gun, I'd be up for trying another load. Does anyone know for sure of another Aguila load that will knock down the other animals and shares the same lube that the SSS rounds use?

Thanks, as always.

[rn122]

Jason:  I just use CCI standard velocity for everything but the pigs and rams.  I have not found the different lubes to degrade accuracy so I could notice.  Afterall, this is not BR or prone where a fraction of an inch has much relevance.  We're shooting on our two hind legs, which makes for a very unstable platform, at a relatively large target.  The bulk of the ram is 12.5 MOA long and over 5 MOA tall!  I would suggest shooting the cheapest ammo that will group well in your gun.

On another thought:  if you find that the aguila sss will not group well, you may want to try a Paco tool.  Check out rimfirecentral.com.  There's more than a few people who say that the paco will improve the accuracy of the aguila.  You're basically using a hammer and die to swage the bullet and change its nose shape, and I presume, its center of balance, to make it spin truer through our 1 in 16 inch twist barrels.  Or as Tirador recommended several months previous, shoot Lapua scoremax 48gr ammo, and save the bother.  I have tried them and they are slightly more accurate in my gun compared to the aguila.  Downside:  they're expensive, I think over $80/brick. Could I use the extra fraction of an inch of accuracy?  Probably not now.  I might though, when I'm well into the master class and hot on the heels of someone like Tirador.  But I do not see that happening anytime soon.

Might I suggest that you buy a brick of the aguila and try it out?  I bought my brick from Cabelas, as their fixed shipping costs made it the cheapest.  I buy it by the case from Aim Surplus, as their combined ammo and shipping costs were the cheapest for me, here on the left coast.  They will ring a few of the rams, but will take down the greater majority of them.  I just wish the fragrance was more pleasant.

[ajj]

I don't mean to belabor this but my first post wasn't clear and I'm still curious. We shoot the half scale pistol targets here with our smallbore rifles in a new, "fun" match that seems to be drawing some new shooters who are intimidated by real, fifth scale targets. Everybody likes to hit something now and then. Fort Smith has had a popular half scale match for some time. They try to set the rams with 1/4 of the foot hanging over the back of the rail. We don't see much "ringing" even with 40 gr standard vel. Question is whether that soft setting is in the rules.
rn122 has an excellent point about relative accuracy.
Let me recommend this "half-scale with real silhouette rifles" match to all of you who aren't yet masters. It is an outstanding learning experience. It WILL teach you to find a spot on a big target and it WILL remind you that you must concentrate on every shot. (Otherwise, you miss.) It will give you experience dealing with a little more success than you're used to. It will be another match experience, which is always good. I'll quit shooting it when I hit all 40 or make master, whichever comes first. Looks like it might be awhile.

[nomad]

AJJ

If you're shooting smallbore at  the smallbore pistol targets, you shouldn't have to soft set them. We shot pistol snimals for about 4 years at our fun match and we almost never saw rung rams. (We ARE having a little 'shaking out' period with our new, resettable pistol targets but that's part of the learning curve as we figure out just how to balance the stands.)
Now if we screw up -- or if somebody's sense of humor needs a jolt -- and we throw a few centerfire pistol rams into the 'smallbore' mix, we get to listen to a bunch of groans... ;-)

I know of nothing in the rules that suggests soft-setting rams for cowboy. (It might be there but, if it is, I've missed it.)

[Jason]

We shoot the smallbore pistol targets with cowboy rifles and don't have much trouble with ringing the rams except with standard velocity target ammo. I have been using PMC Sidewinders because they shoot well in my Marlin 39a and are cheap. They are really dirty, though, and coat the inside of the gun with a gummy wax that gets on my nerves. If the Aguila SSS rounds shoot well, I might just go ahead and use them for all of the smallbore and PC targets, so I only have one kind of lube in the barrel and one set of sight settings. They are cheap enough from Natchez that it's easier to just make it simple.

[rn122]

I like ajj's idea of a fun match to attract new shooters.  Seems to be a problem at the club I shoot at.  We have over 200 members, few of who actually attend any of the various matches:  LA silhouettes, pistol silhouettes, HP and SB rifle silhouettes, BPCR, and CAS.  And to top it off, seems like all the shooters are over 50, with some well into the 70's.  Nothin' wrong with that, but if we don't start attracting a younger crowd, we may end up dying on the vine.

Seems to me the best format to have a fun shoot would be in LA and pistol silhouettes.  HP and SB are shot on the smaller sizes/greater distance that increases difficulty.  BPCR requires a sizeable investment, not to mention getting married to your rifle to find a load that will shoot decently.  CAS has potential, but 2 pistols, a LA rifle and shotgun, plus the clothing and misc. paraphenalia smells like a sizeable investment.  SB LA/pistol would be a great place to start.  Any rifle action , or pistol, any sights, any position, SB targets out to 100 meters.  I should bring this up at our next meeting.  

Any of your clubs do any fun shoots to attract new shooters, and what exactly do you do?  Interested in hearing your suggestions.

[nomad]

We run a fun match that is a Smallbore Hunters Pistol or Cowboy Lever Action match in everything but name. Same targets, same distances, same range procedure -- except we use 'real' rifle times. Any .22LR with ammunition that doesn't damage targets. Any guns: rifles or pistols, irons or scopes.

We've been doing it for quite a while (since well before Cowboy came along) and it's pretty effective in attracting newbies. It's also a good place for 'real' silhouette shooters to practice, it brings the short gun types out and it gets family members to the range who normally wouldn't attend. We get a reasonable number of transitional shooters who start at the fun matches and move up to smallbore rifle and we see a lot of people who aren't interested in investing the time, effort or money needed to shoot the more serious matches but who come repeatedly to the easier game.
When we get juniors too young to stand up and handle a rifle, we allow them to shoot off the benches. Same with wives and girlfriends. Once they  get to where they can handle the harder game, we move them up.

We make certain that there's always spare equipment available and that anyone interested in moving up has access to full-out silhouette gear.

We keep it 'fun' by awarding all prizes as door prizes, except for one 1st place. (That usually requires a 40/40.) That way, even the newest junior with a low score can 'win'.

It's a club match but we treat it as an NRA event and open it for the public to compete without worrying about club membership.

If your club doesn't have an introductory program, this works very well to get the casual shooters started. There's not much sense in having targets rusting away when they can be attracting new people to the range!

[jneihouse]

I'll chime in on the fun match idea.  As ajj mentioned above we've been shooting it in Fort Smith for some time, ostensibly to attract new shooters.  However, even our veteran shooters like the match.  The half scale targets put success in reach of anyone shooting a box stock .22 and scope combo that he or she didn't have to spend two or three mortgage payments to buy.  Sunday afternoon at the range I was very pleased to see a young father and his 11 year old son turn up with matching Ruger 10-22's sighting them in to shoot our next match.  They came out last match and watched and decided it was something they could do together.  The match is shot concurrent with the regular match, so the 1/2 scale competitor have a chance to experience a match with the same range commands.  We classify a new shooter B, A, AA,AAA, or Master using the same numbers as you would in a standard rifle match.  Shoot twice out of your class. or two classes over your class you move up.  We give a plaque for each class winner in the 1/2 scale match and give 10 in a row pins for 10 kills in a row on each bank.  We actually give out more wall and hat decoration in the 1/2 scale match than we do in the NRA matches.  We have a local sporting goods store, The Tackle Box, that has put up a $50.00 gift certificate for a perfect 40.  Incidentially, we had a few 40's shot every year in the past, but since the gift certificate has been there we have had several 39's, but no 40's.  We keep the match price low (5 bucks and shoot all you want) and juniors always shoot free.  

John Neihouse

[Jason]

Just an update here. I got some of the Aguila SSS ammo and tried it yesterday. The PMC Sidewinders (my smallbore ammo) and the Velocitors (my PC ammo) both shoot groups of about .75" to 1.1" for three shots at 50 yards using the same sights I shoot matches with. The SSS ammo shot groups in excess of 8" and even that's understating it. Only about two of the 75 rounds I shot obviously keyholed, but the rest of them were literally all over the place. A few missed my 11x17" target altogether. I don't even think a Paco tool can do anything to help them out of that gun.

Oh well, back to the Velocitors for now. I haven't decided if I am just going to live with the fact that I can't knock down rams reliably (not likely knowing my personality) or grab another gun for that match. I already have the 30/30,  and I'll be using it for the long range match. I know it shoots well (3-shot groups at 100yds ranged from .66" to 1.2") with the factory Winchester 150-grain PP loads. I just have to figure out how to reload for it, as my reloading experience is with other rifle action types (with scopes) and pointy bullets going very fast.