Game Changer: VW builds limited edition 300mpg car, but won't be sold in USA

[TM7]

0- 60 in about 11 seconds.  Won't be sold in USA for the usual 'rules and regs' excuses. Quite expensive, but does prove the point that fuel tyranny can be minimized.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2540618/The-fuel-efficient-car-world-Volkswagen-XL1-does-300-MILES-gallon-looks-cool-too.html
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...TM7

[mcbammer]

By  the  time it  hits the U.S. , diesel  probably  be 34 bucks  a  gallon.

[rdmallory]

I am throwing the BS flag on this one.

1. There is not enough heat energy in Diesel to get 300 miles per gallon even if the vehicle is 100% fuel efficient (no loss through cooling etc).
2. You can not count the miles driven via electic (before the diesel engine turns on)

Doug

[magooch]

I second that motion.  I'm pretty sure you couldn't put a diesel on a motor bike and get that kind of mileage.  Anyway, it's about the same as running a vehicle off of solar panels; it can be done, but it ain't real practical.

[Larry L]

Not sure why the "game changer" in the title but this is not going to change anything. The car is not going to be sold here because it has zero safety devices required. It also won't pass any emissions testing for the US. Getting this type of fuel mileage is nothing new. What will be a game changer, if VW puts it on the streets, is their headless design that is close to the Dr Paul headless engine that is the size of a briefcase, is 100% emissions free in that the exhaust is breathable air, makes over 900HP and uses a biofuel that you can make at home at the rate of 5 gallons per 10 hours. VW claims their engine is not quite as efficient but fuel mileages in the mid 100's is very real in a normal size car unlike this model shown that is like an overgrown sleek golfcart.

[sethk]

The 300+ mpg is based on the imperial gallon. So this gets more like 260 mpg, which is still not a perfect equivalent since its based on European driving habits and standards.  A big chunk of that number comes from the initial battery charge.  If you don't charge it and just fill it with diesel, they claim 120 (US) mpg, which is still impressive as its almost triple the efficiency of traditional diesel cars and almost double what other Euro diesel-hybrids are getting. Of course this car won't end up in the US, but it is still an interesting proof of concept and may prove to be some sort of a game changer.

[rdmallory]

So a stock 81 VW Rabbit diesel got over 60mpg with the 48hp engine. It was about a aerodynamic as a box. A few folks did some tweaking and got it up to over 80mpg.

So mid 100mpg on an imperial gallon is not much of an accomplishment and not a Game Changer.

It is physics not magic.

One gallon of #2 diesel fuel = 50.87 HP per hour.

So if your engine is 100% efficient (nothing lost cooling, exhaust, ETC) you have 50.87 HP to run a vehicle as far as you can in one hour.

Following me?

My vehicle has a top speed of 60 mph with it's 48hp engine, so after one hour I have traveled 60 miles. (anyone ever driven a VW diesel)

So to get 120mpg you have to travel 120mph or go 60mph with 25hp.

To get the 300mpg the car would have to run 60mph with a 10hp engine.

This does not give any power for the AC, Alternator, Lights, fan, power anything.

 So it might be doable but not real practical.

[sethk]

So a stock 81 VW Rabbit diesel got over 60mpg with the 48hp engine. It was about a aerodynamic as a box. A few folks did some tweaking and got it up to over 80mpg.

So mid 100mpg on an imperial gallon is not much of an accomplishment and not a Game Changer.

It is physics not magic.

One gallon of #2 diesel fuel = 50.87 HP per hour.

So if your engine is 100% efficient (nothing lost cooling, exhaust, ETC) you have 50.87 HP to run a vehicle as far as you can in one hour.

Following me?

My vehicle has a top speed of 60 mph with it's 48hp engine, so after one hour I have traveled 60 miles. (anyone ever driven a VW diesel)

So to get 120mpg you have to travel 120mph or go 60mph with 25hp.

To get the 300mpg the car would have to run 60mph with a 10hp engine.

This does not give any power for the AC, Alternator, Lights, fan, power anything.

 So it might be doable but not real practical.

I'm no expert, and I've never driven a diesel VW, but I find this rather interesting from the practical physics perspective. The Rabbit and XL1 are great vehicles to compare as they are very similar in terms of weight (1785/1752lbs) and HP (48/47). I still think that a closer look at things shows that the XL1 should not be dismissed so easily. For one, the drag coefficient alone (.48 vs .189) could come close to accounting for doubling of the mpg between a stock Rabbit and an XL1. Then there is the fact that the XL tops out at over 100mph (it's regulated not to pass that mark) due to efficiency and drag improvements. So while each hits it's official 60 or 120 mpg sweet spots cruising around 40-45 mph, the Rabbit is gonna be pushing itself and loosing a relatively higher number of miles per gallon than the XL1 would at that speed.


Anyway, just some thoughts that I hope are more or less right and pertinent.

[pastorp]

Well I used to own a VW rabbit diesel and it was a pain to drive. The fuel stinks & you have extra expense for filters and maintance. And mine didn't get no where near 50 mpg much less a 100 mpg.  just saying. I'll stick with my Ford F150.

[Mikey]

HA!  When I saw the title 'game changer' and VW, I thought you were talking about the defeat the UAW suffered trying to unionize the S. Carolina VW employees.  It seems as though the vote was a emphatic 'No thanks', and this might well change the game for the union - since they couldn't get into VW, they are left as a 'northern' faction dealing with the big 3.  This is a serious defeat for the union and may well spell the direction the unions will go - out the door.


Funny part was that the VW management even said they 'supported' the effort, but I think the VW folk, or the Germans specifically, have another situation in mind, called the workers counsel?  It is supposed to address the same issues the unions address, but without all the political bs and obama hype.


For those who do not know much about the way German industry operates, they have a concept called 'containment' - it's where you stay one step ahead of the unions by giving  just a little bit of what they want; this way you 'contain' them into a specific employment category that receives on specific employment benefits.  They have applied the same concept to their health care programs, unlike Britain or Canada with socialized medicine, and that helps contain costs and places certain (foreign) population 'groups' into sub-classes of the population, apparently just where the majority of German folks want them.......................

[Conan The Librarian]

The XL1 and its predecessor the L1 have been around for quite a while. Minimum mileage goal for the project was one liter per 100 Km, and it betters that goal. This is not fantasy, it's reality. Note that it is still in "early adapter" stage, with its high price and limited production. Since it was first built, carbon fiber technology has advanced and is now a lot cheaper to produce the body panels and other carbon fiber parts. The comment about imperial vs. US is correct. The car only needs 8hp to cruise at 60.  The mileage is not claimed, it's been objectively verified multiple times in the car's several years of existence.  The earlier L1 was much lighter.

[rdmallory]

The car only needs 8hp to cruise at 60.

Ok, I will go along with that. But there is a little issue with hills, head wind, acceleration and air conditioning.
Anyone ever remember driving that 48hp Rabbit? Entrance ramps to the interstate need to be very long and down hill.

It is back to physics and the 8hp to run 60 works for me under ideal conditions.
This is not taking current safety regulations under consideration. Add safety bumpers, airbags, roll over protection and see how long the 8hp number holds up.

I am not saying it is not doable. I am saying it is not practical with today's fuel prices.

Newton's laws objects at rest have a tendency to stay at rest without a force acting on them.

To meet the expected fuel consumption the vehicle would have to be VERY light, be very aerodynamic, have a very low rolling resistance ( hard tires).
No heat or AC (consumes energy) lights and wipers? An alternator takes about 1.7 hp. AC 6-8 HP Get the idea?

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein

[sethk]

The car only needs 8hp to cruise at 60.

Ok, I will go along with that. But there is a little issue with hills, head wind, acceleration and air conditioning.
Anyone ever remember driving that 48hp Rabbit? Entrance ramps to the interstate need to be very long and down hill.

It is back to physics and the 8hp to run 60 works for me under ideal conditions.
This is not taking current safety regulations under consideration. Add safety bumpers, airbags, roll over protection and see how long the 8hp number holds up.

I am not saying it is not doable. I am saying it is not practical with today's fuel prices.

Newton's laws objects at rest have a tendency to stay at rest without a force acting on them.

To meet the expected fuel consumption the vehicle would have to be VERY light, be very aerodynamic, have a very low rolling resistance ( hard tires).
No heat or AC (consumes energy) lights and wipers? An alternator takes about 1.7 hp. AC 6-8 HP Get the idea?

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein

For the record, this thing does have a single, driver-side airbag, but your point is quite right, this is not ready for prime time. A good stepping stone though, I think. One of the biggest things mentioned by test drivers is how loud this thing is (including road noise). Seeing a crash test would be interesting too. Imagine this thing getting sideswiped by a Hummer.

[Conan The Librarian]

It's interesting how people old enough to remember the old diesel technology think that today's automotive diesels have not improved. That's a very capable car. It weighs close to twice what its predecessor weighed, yet still gets the same mileage. It's not designed to be an SUV or a land yacht, it's a new kind of car, designed specifically for high mileage with an internal combustion engine, and is being presented as such. The limitations are not being hidden or suppressed. Keep in mind that the same kinds of arguments persist with cars like the Prius, which has been successful, popular, durable, reliable, and capable during its production history. The Prius is still considered new fangled by many, but it's been in production, for sale, for about 15 years. The Tesla model S also has limitations (more severe than the XL1), but that doesn't prevent them from selling a lot of them to satisfied customers.


What if, for example, the XL1 concept could be extended to get less fuel mileage, like only 200mpg, but with a more comfortable cockpit and air conditioning? That reality can be achieved with current technology. You gotta give these guys some credit.


Consider, for example, how the XL1 reconceptualizes the meaning of the phrase "fill up". Today, a fill up at a gas station means buying 12 to 20 gallons of fuel, for most people, and that amount of fuel is typically good for about 300 miles of travel. With the XL1, a fill-up means buying 2 gallons of fuel for 600 miles of travel. Does that not count for something?

[charles p]

I once rented a Diesel station wagon in Spain.  The exit ramp from under our hotel garage was inclined and the parking ticket reader was at the top of the hill at street level.  If I drove the car to the ticket reader and stopped, the car did not have enough power to make a standing start on the incline.

I had to send my wife on foot up the garage ramp with our parking ticket.  She would activate the gate and I would then floor the car in first gear to get up the hill and to the street level.

The car was a Ford with a 4-cyl Diesel and manual transmission.  The year was about 2005.

[greywolf444]

I drove a mercury lynx diesel. Bought it new in  '84. Got a day in/day out average of 46mpg for 11 years. In those 11 years it needed  a solenoid and one headlamp for repairs. Never needed to be plugged in, had all the required fuel and air preheaters. Started and ran every day down to -23 degrees.  No you couldn't punch it and play in traffic but with a little planning passing wasn't a big problem.  Now the big three can't figure out how to make a car like that. I'd buy another one today if it was available.

[sethk]

...Now the big three can't figure out how to make a car like that. ...

They know how to do it.  There is just no market, or at least no market that they want to have developing.  Truely utilitarian vehicles that run efficiently and keep going with minimal maintenance go completely counter to the "driving experience" and buyer behavior that the manufacturers have worked so hard to cultivate (and cash in on). 

[rdmallory]

With the XL1, a fill-up means buying 2 gallons of fuel for 600 miles of travel. Does that not count for something?

It would if you didn't have to plug it in for the 300 miles.

Now the big three can't figure out how to make a car like that. I'd buy another one today if it was available.

I would think the emission standards has a lot to do with it.

Imagine this thing getting sideswiped by a Hummer.

Funny you mention that. My wife went out last week and forgot I had parked next to her. She turned a little too sharp and her H3 took the front end completely off my car. Nothing left but a big pile of plastic. Damage to Hummer ---0.

Doug

[45-70.gov]

diesel tractor engine in truck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxnU3F6EM-0