Author Topic: Help With Plum Brown  (Read 1606 times)

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Offline WW1

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Help With Plum Brown
« on: March 25, 2005, 06:29:07 PM »
I have a problem, at least my Dad has a problem...need to know if anyone else has had the same...My Dad made his first custom muzzle loader in 76..it is a thing of beauty..then he made me one and one for my brother..then shortly before Mom died, he started 5 more, one for each of his grandkids..he has always done the metal in either brass and plum brown or browned steel and German silve....that is what mine is...all of his ealry ones are pure beauty...he always used Birchwood Casey Plum Brown..always came out really nice..with these rifles it just isnt working..at first I blamed it on the steel of the nose caps, trigger guards, and butt plates..now he started the barrels...cant remember what make they are, but they were good ones and you guessed it...they look crappy.. we called Birchwood casey and they say nothing has changed in the formula over the years..I feel it has and they wont admit it..problem is I dont think anyone else makes the browning solution..has anyone had this problem?..if so what is the fix for it?..any help would be appreciated.. thanks alot..WW1
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Offline Evil Dog

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Help With Plum Brown
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2005, 07:14:36 PM »
Have been using Plum Brown for well over 30 years now and atleast for me it has always worked the same... haven't noticed any change at all.  Just be sure that the metal is completely degreased (wiping with acetone seems to work well) and heated to the point where a drop of water will sizzle like it had been dropped on a griddle.  It will probably require multiple applications to get it to come out even and a pleasingly dark brown.  Rinse with clean water, possibly wipe down with fine steel wool and degrease if necessary between applications.  Might take 5 or 6 coats (especially on the larger pieces) but it is absolutely the best browning solution that I have found.  Clean well and oil or wax after the final coat.
Evil Dog

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Offline Cowpox

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Help With Plum Brown
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2005, 08:15:52 PM »
I had the same experience WW1, put three kits together back in the early eighties, a rifle, a pistol, and a shotgun. They came out great, and still look nice, though they have darkened some. Last summer I built a .32 flinter, and the browning came out blotchy. This winter, a built a Trapper Pistol kit, and while the browning looked better, it was still not like I wanted it to look. I completely stripped the flinter again, degreased with acetone, followed by Birchwood degreaser, and came out with worse browning than the first attempt last summer. Like you, I thought they must have changed the formula. I still had a .54 Mountain rifle kit to build, so I bought a hobby gunsmithing book of ebay. It has a pretty good section on blueing and browning.  The browning woes are caused by the new chemicals being used in city water. he says well water is better, but it is best to use clean rain water or distilled. I just got done browning the .54 yesterday, and the author seems to be correct. This one came out nice, and I plan to redo the other two using his methods. They are as follows.

1 polish the metal with sandpaper, ending with 180 grit.

2 degrease with any degreaser (I used acetone followed with Birchwood).

3 grease bore and seal with wood plugs driven into bore.

4 rinse in clear water.

5 put two steel wire hangers in your steel barrel tank so the barrel (and under rib) is one inch from the bottom, and hang small parts from wires so they are the same one inch from sides and bottom. Cover the parts, at least an inch,  with rain or distilled water, keeping track of amount. Add 1/2 tablespoon of lye per gallon of water and bring to a boil. Boil for twenty minutes. From this point on, do not touch the metal without rubber gloves.

6 remove from lye water, and place in hot (180 degree) water for two minutes.

7 remove from rinse, dry, and heat barrel just to the point water sizzles on it. Do not overheat, or you will get too much slag and the color will be too dark. apply more heat whenever sizzling quits. When completely covered, set aside for 15 or 20 minutes until you can handle it comfortably.  

8 While the barrel is cooling, warm the rinse water back to 180 degrees. place barrel back in the rinse water and card slag lightly with degreased steel wool. I rinsed mine with acetone and boiled it in the lye with the metal, then rinsed again with distilled water.

9 repeat 7 and 8 until you get desired color. I got the "plumb' color I like with three applications. I also changed rinse water each time.

I don't know if all this is necessary, but it worked well, so I plan to keep doing it this way. I hope yours comes out as nice as this one did, and I hope to get the same results on the rifle and pistol when I redo them again.
I rode with him,---------I got no complaints. ---------Cowpox

Offline WW1

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Plum Brown..
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2005, 11:50:16 AM »
Hot to Evil Dog and Cowpox..wanted to thank you both for your responses..Evil, all I can say is he always had very good luck also but with not that much work...says he has over 11 hours in just one barrel and it still isnt right....I can tell you this, if it doesnt work out soon I hate to see an 80 year old man cry...like I say he is a perfectionest and usually gets things to work...and Cowpox I have printed out you instructions and will be going to his house for easter dinner tomorrow so will take them to him..you know I dont know how he has always done it but he never used a barrel tank...he may have to pick one up if worse comes to worse....but I do know how ever he has always done it they looked great...if i knew how to post pictures here, I would send you one of my custom..the stocks one what he has made all came out of an old maple stump we found many years ago and slabbed it out with a chainsaw..very pretty curly maple...he has always bought a barrel(Douglas on my rifle) , butt plate, trigger guard lock and the nose cap and the stip of steel under the barrel with the barrel looking pieces that hold the ramrod...everything else he either makes from German silver or brass...that includes the patchbox if it has one and any little stars or medalions...mine has fine wire of German silver scrolls here and there..a very pretty rifle...I do know when he finished it he took it to a guy he knew that made customs for people and the guy claimed it was worth $2,000 in 1983...but of course it iwll stay in the family...thanks again and I hope the info helps him...WW1
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Offline Shorty

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Help With Plum Brown
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2005, 12:05:50 PM »
In my opinion, it's not the Plum Brown, it's the steel.  I've found that, the higher the carbon content, the better the steel takes a brown.  Investment cast parts, such as trigger guards, lockplates, hammers are usually of 8620 steel and are a bear to brown.  Barrels are usually high carbon, and take a brown nicely.  Of course, a muzzleloader does just fine, if not better, with a dead soft cold-rolled barrel, but browning (or blueing) can be a problem.

Offline Cowpox

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Help With Plum Brown
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2005, 04:07:28 PM »
Thanks Shorty, Your comments about carbon content agree with the author of the book. He mentioned that the carbon content in muzzleloader barrels can really vary. Even can be different from spot to spot on some of the imported barrels. All three of the ones I have done in the last 6 months were made in Spain. According to him, boiling in the lye water opens the pores, so the browning takes more evenly. I liked it better the way it worked twenty five years ago. Just degrease with Birchwood Casey degreaser, and while holding the wife at bay with one hand, did the rinsing under running water in the kitchen sink. I preheated the metal in (had to sedate wife) her oven, and warmed with a propane torch while applying solution. It was easy, and looked great. I had decided the boiling and hot water rinsing was probably unneeded, and was going to try it the old way, but rinsing with distilled. Now that your comments about carbon content have confirmed what he said, I guess I won't get lazy, and keep the tank involved in the process. Thanks again.
I rode with him,---------I got no complaints. ---------Cowpox

Offline Cowpox

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Help With Plum Brown
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2005, 04:58:10 PM »
WW1, Your dad sounds like what I wish I was.  All I ever have done is kits, although I do a lot of reshaping and thinning of the stock, and buy nicer furniture from Track of the Wolf, I really doubt I could cut up an old stump and make a stock that looked like it wasn't an old stump!  As you can see by my reply to Shorty, I will continue the boiling things in lye. Brownell's sells tanks, and the cheapest they have is $37 plus shipping. I bought a sheet of thin steel from the local Blacksmith. The closest bends he could make in his brake was 8 1/4 inches, so it is wider than it has to be.  The piece he cut was 20 1/2 inches wide, and 52 1/2 inches long. He bent it so the bottom is 8 1/4 wide and the sides about 6 inches high. It cost around ten bucks. I have a wire feed welder, so I took it home, and sawed 8 1/2 inches off one end, then cut the sides off the short piece and welded them in for the ends. I ended up with a 44 inch long tank that is heavier, and will last longer than the very thin Brownell tank, for less than a third of the cost. It has to be black, uncoated steel. Good luck.
I rode with him,---------I got no complaints. ---------Cowpox

Offline Ramrod

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Help With Plum Brown
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2005, 05:42:03 PM »
Quote from: Shorty
In my opinion, it's not the Plum Brown, it's the steel.  I've found that, the higher the carbon content, the better the steel takes a brown.  Investment cast parts, such as trigger guards, lockplates, hammers are usually of 8620 steel and are a bear to brown.  Barrels are usually high carbon, and take a brown nicely.  Of course, a muzzleloader does just fine, if not better, with a dead soft cold-rolled barrel, but browning (or blueing) can be a problem.

Why not try a cold (rust) brown? Isn't that how it was done in the old days, with the soft iron barrels? Sure it will take longer, but it works.
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Offline WW1

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Thanks
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2005, 04:30:05 AM »
thanks again for the comments and sugestions..I agree 25 years ago it worked differently..it may be the metal as suggested but I am not so sure...if I can figgure a way to do picts I may post one of my rifle....and yes I wish I had his tallents...usually if i try something like that it goes in the garbage can...hahaha...all I know is when he is gone the world has lost a craftman...thnaks again and i will post f he get some good results.....WW1
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Offline SuperstitionCoues

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Ramrod and Cold Browning Process
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2005, 04:32:55 AM »
I have to agree with Ramrod.  

Laurel Mountain Forge makes a nice one, and it's available via Track of the Wolf and others.  

My biggest concern with it (being in Az) is to have a source of humidity available when I'm doing the browning.  Keeping a pot of warm water in the area you are browning seems to help.
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Offline WW1

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plum brown
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2005, 04:32:21 AM »
Cowpox have a couple of questions...first are you sure it was 180 grit on the paper?..sounds kind of course and Dad says he always used finner so am checking..also where did you get the lye?...I ordered some off Ebay but havent recieved it yet..cant seem to find it here..also are there different strengths?...the stuff I ordered says for cleaning glass insulators us the 35 ozs mixed with 2 gallons of water and soak for e days...of course that is for getting bad stains off of glass...it says it is 99+% pure, so am hoping it is right...and guys as for the cold rust type, dont think he has ever tried that...not even sure what it entails..all I know is he is over 80 and wants to make sure he gets all 5 done before he cant...it is his gift to the grandkids...thanks again WW1
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Offline Cowpox

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Help With Plum Brown
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2005, 07:19:17 AM »
WW 1, I tried to answer your PM , but must have done something wrong because when I hit the submit, I got an error notice.  As for the 180 grit, he said that the finer the finish, the less purchase the browning gets on the metal. Of course, that is his opinion based on what he thinks. I have always went down to 300 grit, and had good results, but he said he quit at 180 wet or dry grit, so that is what I did. It turned out smoother than I expected, and looks nice, but under close scrutiny, I can see a few lines. I think I will try going down to 220 on my next attempt. You can get lye at any hardware store by the drain cleaners. The last time I bought lye, it was called LEWIS household LYE, and was sold as a drain opener and had a recipe for soap on the can.  The can I just bought is lewis RED DEVIL 100% LYE, sold as a drain opener, has contains sodium hydroxide under ingredients, and the soap recipe is no longer on the label. From what you said about the stuff you got on the internet, I would say it is lye. Say hi to the old Craftsman for me.
I rode with him,---------I got no complaints. ---------Cowpox

Offline WW1

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thanks agin
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2005, 11:47:44 AM »
thanks again Cowpox...relayed the info to dad and he said to say thanks... placed a big order with Brownells this morning...now he can stew while he waits....hahaha...again I do thank you...as for the cold rust finish that was mentioned also he says he doesnt have enough time with 5 of them to do..he seems to think it takes a long time for each one to finish...I know nothing so am leaving it up to him...hahaha...WW1
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Offline SuperstitionCoues

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Help With Plum Brown
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2005, 03:48:48 AM »
Quote from: Cowpox
You can get lye at any hardware store by the drain cleaners.st time I bought lye, it was called LEWIS household LYE, and was sold as a drain opener and had a recipe for soap on the can.  The can I just bought is lewis RED DEVIL 100% LYE, sold as a drain opener, has contains sodium hydroxide under ingredients, and the soap recipe is no longer on the label. From what you said about the stuff you got on the internet, I would say it is lye. Say hi to the old Craftsman for me.


The common name for Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH) is Lye.  Be careful with this stuff, and follow the warning labels/instructions for gloves, etc. on the can.  Caustics can be as harmful as acids.  

Hope it works out.

Matt
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Offline WW1

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Help With Plum Brown
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2005, 02:58:34 PM »
yep already have the special gloves comming...cowpox I have a goofy question for you...my Dad found some Red Devil Lye in a hardware store..
I have got some comming I bought on eBay....my question is this...he called me tonight after he found it and according to the warning on his label, you dont want to use it with hot water...any certain way you mix it with the water?...mix it cold then bring to a boil?...or is the lye he bought just a different kind of lye?....he also has the tanks comming and who knows what else...says he has so much invested now he might as well go into the business....hahha...it has been a treat discussing this with all of you and reading the replies you give...for this I thnak you all....WW1/Rob
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Offline savageT

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Help With Plum Brown
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2005, 03:20:13 PM »
WWI,
Sodium Hydroxide or lye is exothermic (gives off heat) and it will react with hot water!  Always start with cold water and add the crystals of NaOH.  You'll soon see why...........it gets HOT all by itself.

Sorry, I'm not a chemist but a metallographer, and I've brewed up many formulations of acids and basis.  You had better know someone who knows what and how to handle these things.  Don't get the lye around any kind of acids because it will cause a violent reaction. Finally, wear a rubber apron and rubber gloves and safety goggles of full face shield.

Jim
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Offline WW1

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thanks
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2005, 01:11:50 PM »
SavageT thanks for the cautions...he has most of the safety stuff....the question he had you answered...start with cold water..I am glad I asked as I had no idea....anyway thanks....ww1
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Offline Birddog6

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Help With Plum Brown
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2005, 03:32:56 AM »
I don't mean to be a damper on things, but have been reading of all of these tanks & hot lye water & boiling & etc.... all of that boiling & lye & safety issues involved  sure seems to be allot of trouble just for browning a barrel.  I guess everyone has their ways of doing things, but thre are easier, quicker, safer ways with very successful results, ways of browning a barrel & trim.

I have browned many of them with Tru-Brown in humid weather or in a steamy bathroom, and it takes 21-24 hours & ya end up with a deep dark rich brown.  I am told the Laural Mtn. solution will work the same, tho I have not tried it personally, still using my supply of Tru-Brown.  I brown all the metal on 4-5 rifles a year now & have always had good success with this proceedure.

But anyway, I brown with it as per instructions, no mess , no boiling, no tanks, just outside under a awning & in 7-8 applications & carding every 3 hrs. with a Dixel wire wheel from Brownells, you have a beautifully rich durable deep browned barrel in a day & ya don't have to mess with lye or a tank.

I did try Plumb Brown back in ? 1978 or so, still have that ugly browned rifle as a reminder of never to use it again.  :oops:

Birddog6

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Offline Cowpox

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Help With Plum Brown
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2005, 02:06:43 PM »
Sorry WW 1, Been visiting the last few days, and haven't been around a computer. Yes, put lye in cold water. As was noted above, putting a large enough amount of lye in water will generate enough heat to boil the water. One half tablespoon per gallon isn't that volatile, but definitely start with room temperature water. I just put the water in my tank (two gallons), then sprinkled a tablespoon of lye from one end to the other. it sank to the bottom, and in a few minutes it had dissolved, so I lit the burner, and ran a piece of wood gently from one end of the tank to the other, and back again. When I could see steam rising from the surface, I put the parts in, and watched until it boiled, then lowered the heat to a gentle boil and set the kitchen timer for 20 minutes. I started warming the rinse water to the specified 180 degrees on the thermometer. then when time was up, I but the parts in the rinse, and gently stirred it with the wood for the required two minutes. On the first rinse, I don't think it matters if it is hotter, but after the browning is on, don't go above the 180, because if the water is too hot, it will darken the brown, not to mention being uncomfortable while carding and rinsing. After the Lye water had cooled, I just put it down the floor drain. If you want to dump it on the ground, you may want to neutralize it with a couple tablespoons of baking soda.
I rode with him,---------I got no complaints. ---------Cowpox

Offline Cowpox

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Help With Plum Brown
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2005, 02:32:54 PM »
Hello Birddog6, Like you mentioned, The work intensive methods required these days to get a nice job with Plumb Brown is a turn off to me. I am in the process of building a shop so I can build rifles for a part time job when I get retired in two years. I plan to put a damp cabinet in for rust browning, and would like you to elaborate on your experience with Tru Brown. Track of the Wolf lists Tru Brown as "No longer available", so I tried Laurel Mountain Forge. No matter how dry or wet I had my applicator, I kept getting the copper looking substance they warn about in the directions. To be fair, the solution may have been bad, because the instruction sheet they had rubber banded to the bottle was discolored from leakage from the cap. If Tru brown is as handy as you say, I certainly would like to give it a try, because even in bygone days, when I got a nice job with Plumb Brown,Without this boiling thing that worked,  I will have to admit not caring for the heating the parts routine it requires. I think Brownell's still lists Tru Brown, so if it gives a nice hassel free brown, I would sure be willing to try it on my next project.
I rode with him,---------I got no complaints. ---------Cowpox

Offline Birddog6

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Help With Plum Brown
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2005, 02:54:04 AM »
Cowpox:  The only time I ever had a copper color on a part was on a Golden Age I browned on a Frederick Sell rifle one time. I don't know for sure but I think it was not enough humidity & also I think because of this I was carding it too hard & too frequently, thus aquiring the coppor color.
However I bead blasted it & did it over a few days later & all way well.
I should note I bead blast all of my parts before I brown them, as I think it opens the poors & lets it brown easier & deeper. (this is Not in the instructions tho)
I can email you the instruction sheet for the Tru-Brown if you send me your email address.  ( birddogsix@yahoo.com )
I live in AL and at times it is quite humid here & thus a browning box is not required. I do my browning on days I know it will rain for 2-3 days, wait a day for the humidity to set in & brown the second day & in 21-24 hrs have it completed. (Yes, I get up every 3 hrs in the middle of the night & card & reapply the regent)
But all in all I have had wonderful results with it. It is no longer made because the fine gent that makes it has ceased to do so because of the laws & restriction of having the cehmicals around to do so, and the costs of shipping what is deemed hazardous materials & etc.
If Brownels has the regent, I suggest you get some while you can.

Birddog6


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Offline WW1

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question answered...
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2005, 07:02:01 AM »
well that answers my question.....it isnt in Brownells cat...sure hurts to find aut about something and then find out it is to late to get nay.....hahaha...just my luck....and Cowpox we did a barrel yesterday as per your instructions...Dad is going to finish up today and let me know....it did look like it worked better but only time will tell....hahaha...keep me posted if you find a souce for the Tru-Brown... ww1
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Offline Cowpox

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Help With Plum Brown
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2005, 06:37:26 PM »
Sorry WW1, I have been to every supplier I can think of, and quite a few I didn't know existed, and none of them have Tru-Brown listed. When I get a damp cabinet put together, I guess a guy will have to pick one of the other formulas listed in Brownell's. Pinkertons is quite expensive at 4 ounces for about twenty five bucks, and Laurel Mountain Forge are the two cold rust formulas the have. They,of course have Plumb Brown and Mark Lee, but they are both heat with a torch type. Dixie lists one as Dixie instant brown, but don't give a clue as to the method. That's what I came up with after three hours of web searching.
I rode with him,---------I got no complaints. ---------Cowpox

Offline Scota

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Help With Plum Brown
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2005, 09:36:46 AM »
I just put it down the floor drain. If you want to dump it on the ground, you may want to neutralize it with a couple tablespoons of baking soda.[/quote]

Dude, lye is basic, very basic, it will turn the fat in your skin to soap.  If you get it in your eye it will blind you.  A pearl of Red Devil that gets on your skin will painlessly eat its way into your flesh.  Later you will nottice a problem and it will be too late.  You can not nuetralize it with baking soda.  Baking soda is also basic.  It is like nuetralizing gasoline with diesel.  Forget about lye.  You do not need it and it is not helping.  You don't know enough about chemistry to stay out of trouble.   I am a chemist by the way.  

On your browning problem.  First boiling it will make it black.  Second, try suspending your parts over a bathtub of pee warm water overnight.  Swab with the PB and then take to the bathroom without touching them.  It will be all red and rusty by morning.  This should help even out the the Plum Brown job.  Last, be sure and wear latex gloves.  Any speck of skin oil will mess up the job.  Are you carding with steel wool?  Did you degrease it really well?  That stuff is very oily and will trash your job.  Happy browning.

Offline ribbonstone

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Help With Plum Brown
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2005, 12:52:25 PM »
Been working on an old SXS...had a problem with Plumb Brown as well. For that matter, testing s few other things, had a problem with Oxpho-Blue and Laural Mountian Browing as well.  

In this case it turns out to be variations in metal hardness/heat treatment...which makes the grain structure different at differnt locations on the same piece of metal...which gives a "mottled" effect.

Have gotten the copper wash effect with Laural Mt. solution before...comes from rubbing it too hard.  Once you get that copper wash, the only cure it to card it all the way off and try again.  Seems to be worse when the solution or the metal is too warm.

Offline Ramrod

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Help With Plum Brown
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2005, 06:19:44 PM »
I think you can thank the Federal government for the recent lack of good cold browning solutions. The best and most traditional recipies included nitric acid, which is now on the no-no list, supposedly because of enviromental concerns, but I believe it is because if you know what you are doing you can make some pretty good explosives with it. It's a crying shame, because it was also used to make one of the best maple wood stains used during the Golden age of muzzleloaders.
"Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine." Patti Smith