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Offline Third_Rail

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Brass for a small cannon?
« on: May 10, 2005, 08:38:14 AM »
I've already looked into what kind of steel I'll be using for my cannons (1144 SP), but what kind of brass should I use for a small (.18" bore) cannon?
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Offline GGaskill

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Brass for a small cannon?
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2005, 08:57:43 AM »
What is the barrel diameter in the charging area?
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Offline Third_Rail

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Brass for a small cannon?
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2005, 09:04:07 AM »
No more than .75", preferably.... I have a few months until I need this brass, so I can order any needed, but I'd like it to not be too expensive.

I may also make a .5" bore handgonne out of brass, what would be the best for that? (assuming a 1.5"-2" OD)
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Offline GGaskill

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Brass for a small cannon?
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2005, 11:29:23 AM »
Naval brass (UNS C46400, H02) looks good.  So does Nicomet (nickel, tin bronze.)  Remember copper alloys are not cheap.
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Offline Third_Rail

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Brass for a small cannon?
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2005, 12:06:37 PM »
Ok, thank you very much.  :grin:
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Brass for a small cannon?
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2005, 12:19:00 PM »
Quote from: Third_Rail
I've already looked into what kind of steel I'll be using for my cannons (1144 SP), but what kind of brass should I use for a small (.18" bore) cannon?


COOL - a BB size blackpowder cannon!

Are you going to use the copper clad steel BB's or go for the .177 lead pelets?

We might have to have an indoor-cannon competition.
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Offline Third_Rail

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Brass for a small cannon?
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2005, 12:29:23 PM »
:oops:

Looks like I've been found out.  BB size it is, I'll be using the standard copper plated steel BBs mostly, some lead BBs once in a while. Just a fun little toy to demonstrate how a cannon works - the neighborhood is full of kids that love to learn.

Do you think I could get away with .5" OD, or just stick with .75" to be safe? (naval brass)
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Offline CAV Trooper

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Brass for a small cannon?
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2005, 12:36:23 PM »
C46400 is also called Naval Brass and is what was used for gun tubes way back when. It has about a 53,000psi tensile strength which is OK for what we do.

The standard rule of thumb is to have at least one (1) caliber thickness of metal around all sides of the breech area. That means if you plan to have a 1" bore, the cannon tube will have to be at least 3" in diameter at the breech.

Like GGaskill said, this stuff isn't cheap compaired to steel. One source I have for C360 brass charges $230 for a 3" x 36" round bar which weighs 78lbs. A 2" x 12" bar is $45 and weighs 11.5 pounds. Naval brass will probably cost a bit more and might not be as easy to find in small quantities.

Cost factor aside, brass tubes are beautiful   :-D  and always draw lots of attention. Good luck with your project and keep us informed on how it's going.
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Brass for a small cannon?
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2005, 12:40:48 PM »
Quote from: Third_Rail
 ...  Do you think I could get away with .5" OD, or just stick with .75" to be safe? (naval brass)


Don't have a clue - depends on how big the fuse hole is.

Maybe DD could scale down a charge from the COMPLETE Cannoneer  :) .
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Offline GGaskill

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Brass for a small cannon?
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2005, 12:56:34 PM »
Depends on powder charge and shot weight.  Maybe 10 grains of 3Fg and a BB (steel or lead.)  A half inch is probably OK, 9/16" or 5/8" would give you more safety factor, especially with kids in the mix.  What are you going to use as an ignitor?

Also, judging from your co-ordinates, you are not in the most favorable area for firing artillery pieces, especially indoctrinating the children with ideas contrary to the socialist ethic.  Don't run afoul of the authorities.
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Offline Third_Rail

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Brass for a small cannon?
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2005, 01:11:24 PM »
Funny you should say that - the police officer in the neighborhood loves my pyrotechnic displays.  :grin:
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Offline CAV Trooper

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Brass for a small cannon?
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2005, 01:38:20 PM »
If I remember correctly, a standard BB is .177 diameter. Going by the 1 caliber of metal at the breech rule, that would mean a tube needs to be at least .531 thick. A 5/8" (.625) piece of stock should be fine. .75 would be even better and there would be plenty of metal for you turn a nice profile.

OnlineMetals.com sells a 5/8" x 12" brass rod for $5.00. It's C360 which is rated at 58,000psi.

You can get 1/16th" (.0625) or 3/32" (.09375) fuse from cannonfuse.com. With that tiny bore it would probably be better to go with the 1/16th size.

Don't forget the tiny ramrod and swab.  :grin:

Make sure you post pictures. I get the feeling we're ALL going to want one.  :-D
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Offline Third_Rail

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Brass for a small cannon?
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2005, 02:21:43 PM »
I make my own fuse, mostly, so that size is no problem.... On the 1 caliber wall thickness rule, is that even for 1144 SP steel or just for brass/bronze/weaker metals? I was told that on my 1" bore wallgun that .5" walls would be plenty strong.
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Offline Double D

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Brass for a small cannon?
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2005, 04:39:36 PM »
I have some end pieces from the some 17Hornady Mach 2 barrel liners. You could make a Parrot Rifle. I recommend a threaded breech plug...acme threads would be best.   :)
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Offline CAV Trooper

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Brass for a small cannon?
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2005, 05:02:55 PM »
The 1 caliber thickness rule was used with cast bronze and iron gun tubes back in the really old days when they had nothing like the sort of metals we do now. A material like 1144SP with it's 100,000psi yield strength was something they probably only imagined in their wildest dreams.

If your wall gun is made of 1144SP, a .50 wall thickness is really overkill and a .25" thickness would have been just fine.

A .177 bore in a .50 piece of it will be fine for your "mini cannon" but if you decide to use brass, stick with a 5/8" piece for the "1 caliber rule" and you'll be good.
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Offline Third_Rail

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Brass for a small cannon?
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2005, 05:12:30 PM »
Ok, so if I were to make a .18" bore cannon with a .5" 1144SP tube, I'd be fine.

Brass, I'll use the .75" OD stock.
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Brass for a small cannon?
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2005, 12:56:48 AM »
Next will be a 0.12 caliber bore (using a #7-1/2 shot) and made on a watchmaker's lathe.

I can't wait for the pictures!
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Offline Third_Rail

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Brass for a small cannon?
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2005, 04:34:41 AM »
This is a definite go, in terms of whether it'll be done or not. I got clearance from my SO (she said, "Aww a tiny cannon! Cute!") so when I get more machine time (August/September) I'll crank out two or three of these BB cannons, a few handgonnes (one of brass in .5" bore, two in 1144SP in .5" bore) and hopefully later on if I can fit it in, my 1" bore wallgun barrel out of 2" OD 1144SP.


Pictures of everything will be on my priority list, so I'll keep everyone updated. I may scale down an existing style, or I may just go freeform and see what looks best to me re: external features.
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Offline rays89

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Brass for a small cannon?
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2005, 04:34:57 PM »
Thirdrail I figure Ill show you a couple of brass mini cannon.  Both are made of .75 inch fc360? brass rod They are .31 cal. but they are made for launching firecrackers not ball with a small charge (10gr.FFG), Id love to take the credit of these barrels but they were made By the "Irishman" he has a link in the link section "Brooks brothers" Check out his larger brass barrels. The also Irishman gave me a couple of .75 inch brass rod 4 inches long. Which was really cool considering the high price of brass. and since  I have no need for them and I would rather give them to someone who would use them. I figure since the irishman has built me quite a few excellent barrels at a great cost. I can at least pass the favor on. I guess its called good Karma. Ill give you a pm  
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Offline CAV Trooper

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Brass for a small cannon?
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2005, 04:46:57 PM »
Quote
...he has a link in the link section "Brooks brothers".



 :?:  :?:  :?:

It's where?? Couldn't find it anywhere on Greybeard Outdoors.
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Offline Double D

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Brass for a small cannon?
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2005, 06:40:34 PM »
They are on the resource board.

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