Author Topic: 454 Super Redhawk problem (Read 1939 times)

Camp Cook · « **on:** September 20, 2004, 10:11:51 AM »

I have had my 7.5" 454 SRH for about 2 months now and have been reloading for it and shooting it alot. About 250 454 rounds and at least 350 45 colt loads.

I had an bad experience yesterday with my load of 31grs Lil'gun and the 300gr Hornady XTP mag bullets 7.5 Rem small rifle primers and new Winchester brass(I have fired about 50 of these loads with no problem).

I had a chocolate brown color phaze black bear less than 10 yards in front of me. I decided that was close enough so I took a shot just in front and to the side of the bear to warn him off. After my first shot I went to recock the hammer but it would not move and the cylinder would not turn. I pressed the cylinder release button to flip the cylinder out so I could manually turn the cylinder but the cylinder would not release. I had a tall stump beside me so I pushed the release button again and hit the side of the cylinder against the stump hard which made the cylinder pop open. I manually turned the cylinder closed it and with the bear not really reacting to my shot I fired into the same spot again. The cylinder would not turn again so I repeated my smacking the stump again. Talk about having a bit of excitement going on.......

Any way the bear decided that it was time to go and turned around and wandered off. I now had time to look at my gun and bullets and one of the cases was split and the other had a 1/4" wide by 3/8" long chunk of brass missing from the neck of the case.

I single stage load all of my 454 Casull loads and weight every powder charge so it cannot be a problem with improper powder amounts in the cases. As I said earlier I have not had a problem with this load before. I am using RCBS 45 Colt loading dies and a Lee factory crimp die for my crimps. Could I be putting to much of a crimp onto my loads? I am using 1 3/4 turns on my Lee crimp die for my crimp. I fired some other loads to check the gun out and everything worked perfectly but I didn't try anymore of my Lil'gun XTP loads again. Any help or ideas would be great.
Cam

oso45-70 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 20, 2004, 10:28:23 AM »

Camp Cook,
I would guess you had a tired case and it gave out, Sounds like you are doing every thing right. Some times you can get away with loading them
X amount of times and some times not. BOY if a feller was between a s$$t
and a smere things might get a little hairy,, HUH ? Good luck and stay safe
............Joe..........

Camp Cook · « **Reply #2 on:** September 20, 2004, 10:56:03 AM »

I have only used brand new brass with my 454 loads.
Cam

Sverre A. · « **Reply #3 on:** September 20, 2004, 11:39:02 AM »

I bought 50 Winchester factory rounds in .454 - and eight of them cracked after they was fired.

BigBoreSixgun · « **Reply #4 on:** September 20, 2004, 11:49:04 AM »

For this to do split the cases and lockup your gun, the pressures have skyrocketed out of sight.
Stop, pull the rest of the ammo apart. Check your powder charge,make sure it's the right amount of powder,and the right KIND!!!
Also after you shot a lot 45Colt loads, did you clean the chambers?
Residue build up from the shorter case won't allow the longer case to expand and free the bullet.
The fact that you had 2 rounds that did this.Indicates that it's something you did or didn't do. When something like this happens it's almost always the result of reloader/shooter making a mistake,and not a result of defective product.
My bet is on the wrong kind powder or heavy residue build up in the chambers.
The chamber pressures must went over 80,000psi to split cases and lock the gun up! NQuntel

jar-wv · « **Reply #5 on:** September 20, 2004, 11:51:07 AM »

I use Starline brass and it holds up well. I once had a similar problem with once fired Winchester cases. I bought factory ammo and some of the cases split during the next firing. Although I wasn't in a sticky situation like you were. Bet that gave the ole heart muscle a good workout.

Also note there is a recall on some of the Lil Gun powder. Check Hodgdon website for lot #

jar

Camp Cook · « **Reply #6 on:** September 20, 2004, 12:19:57 PM »

I did shoot 6 45 Colt rounds first but cleaned the cylinder with a clean dry rag (so there was no oil in the cylinder and also I used the rag because I left my cleaning kit at home) before I shot the 454 loads. I also shot several different 454 loads using 330gr Jae-Bok Young hard casts, 360gr and 395gr Cast Performance WLNGC's and about 10 of the loads I had the problem with, but only had the problem when the bear was there. The Lil'gun lot # is not the one listed for the recall. I checked that before I bought the powder.
Thanks for the help so far,
Cam

stuffit · « **Reply #7 on:** September 25, 2004, 05:27:07 AM »

I agree with NQuintel on this one. Something about your loads isn't right. That there may have been a mix up in powder is always possible. Pull all the bullets on those loads and examine and weigh the powder charges. No matter how unlikely you think it may be, none of the others of that batch should be fired in your gun.

When I first read you post I thought maybe your bullets were jumping the crimp and locking up your gun but apparently not. The Lee factory crimp is the best one for jacketed bullets in the 454 to my notion, but with weak or cracked brass, it might allow the bullets to go forward with recoil.

It's a mystery that needs solving for sure. The place to start is with pulling the loads from that batch and examining the components carefully.
:wink:
stuffit

Turk · « **Reply #8 on:** October 11, 2004, 04:13:55 PM »

I reload over 26 calibers of rifle and pistol with most of my eq. being Redding. I do have a few Lee Factory crimp for rifles and I have a question are the Lee pistol a roll crimp or a collet squeze type like the rifle? If squeze type it may be too tight and causing excessive pressure. I've seen it in 5.56 Nato rounds that I have reloaded and too much crimp on the bullet. I use the Redding Profile Crimp is is a sepeate roll type and I've never seen any excessive pressure or bullets jumping forward in 357, 41, 44, 45, 454 and 444.

Have a good day and remember to pray for our troops.

A Vietnam Veteran for Bush

Turk

oso45-70 · « **Reply #9 on:** October 11, 2004, 04:30:53 PM »

Camp Cook,
With all that you have gone through maybe you have some bad brass, It could happen. I have on occasion seen brass split on the first firing. It don't happen as often as in the past but it does happen. Just a thought.
..............Joe.............

A korea Vet for BUSH......Flush the Johns.........

Rmouleart · « **Reply #10 on:** October 12, 2004, 03:15:37 AM »

Ruger's 454 Casull seem to have a inherited problem with undersized cylinders, not in all there 454's, in saying this, this is why you can have new brass and still get split and gamed cases, send the revolver back to Ruger, they will either resize or replace the cylinder completely, My best friend had the same problems, at first thought I was over loading, but my SRH 454 casull shot fine, chrono was on the money,we decided to send it to Ruger they replaced the cylinder, nothing said about what or why.
I live in the same state that Rugers service building is in Newport NH.
The people are very nice and will accommodate you and take care of the problem, I don't know what causes the undersized cylinders, maybe dull bits? all I know this does happen to the SRH 454 Casull at times. Just a heads up. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Camp Cook · « **Reply #11 on:** October 12, 2004, 02:56:17 PM »

I have been crimping with the Lee factory crimp die and have been crimping heavier with it than I have ever done with other calibers of bullets. I have been crimping with a 1 & 3/4 turn setting starting with a 1 turn crimp then lowering the bullet and resetting the crimp die another 3/4 turn then finishing my crimp. I just got a bullet puller yesterday and am going to try and pull the bullets tonight.

Don Dick · « **Reply #12 on:** October 13, 2004, 06:54:25 PM »

Maybe it was the pounding of the cylinder on the stump that made the bear leave. As long as he left who cares, even if he was laughing himself silly. :lol: Glad you were not hurt, sound like the wrong powder or too much of the right one for that bullet.

Camp Cook · « **Reply #13 on:** October 14, 2004, 05:09:54 AM »

I tried pulling the bullets apart with a RCBS inertia hammer last night. "WOW" I couldn't get the bullets to move.........

Does anyone have a different way or any ideas for pulling 454 Casull heavy crimped bullets apart?
Cam

southern utah · « **Reply #14 on:** October 14, 2004, 06:39:29 AM »

{Also after you shot a lot 45Colt loads, did you clean the chambers?
Residue build up from the shorter case won't allow the longer case to expand and free the bullet. }

I agree with above and is why I don't shoot 38s in any 357 anymore. A cloth won't remove the residue and some times it is hard to remove with a good brush. Check for lead build up which is sometimes hard to tell. Also check the length of brass to see if it stretched.

Camp Cook · « **Reply #15 on:** October 14, 2004, 07:23:07 AM »

I have been cleaning the chambers after every time I shot the gun or the 45 Colts and have not let any build up of any material happen at all in the chambers. I also measured cylinder chambers to see if they where to tight and would have reamed them out to the correct measurement because I have the reamer to do this.
The worst I did was only use a dry rag this one time after I fired 1 45 Colt round in each chamber but also at least 2 454 bullets in each chamber after the 45's had been fired. Checking the chambers was the first thing that I checked. The brass is brand new never fired before. I measured and trimmed every one of the new brass before I loaded them as well. I have not fired any of these loads since I have cleaned the gun again so don't know if that was the problem for sure though. Right now I'm kind of leaning towards the thought that the crimp is to tight.
I have been reloading for over 25 years now and loading for over 30 different rifles, handgun and shotguns now. I individually weighed each 454 casull load starting with a RCBS powder measure then topping up with a RCBS trickler and an RCBS balance beam scale (can't remember the model # right now and I double checked against a digital scale earlier this year and check weights before I start each session).
Thanks
Cam

Rmouleart · « **Reply #16 on:** October 14, 2004, 09:22:23 AM »

Another way to get bullets out of cases, its primitive but will work most of the time, use your reloading press like if you were reloading a case,put the shell in the cace holder, instead of a die on top use a vise grip with a peace of shammy cloth to separate the grips from the bullet in the case, try not to grip the bullet to hard, or you will misshape them. Sometimes you still ruin the bullets they either scratch or get out of round, then pull up on the handle slow and easy, look to see if your sliping off the bullet, also ou can try a Collette bullet remover, Collet's sometimes can't get a good enough grip on big wide rounded bullets like 45's...Good luck Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

HoCoMDHunter · « **Reply #17 on:** October 18, 2004, 04:59:31 PM »

Not sure what the problem is, but are you are using too much crimp? Is there load data suggesting the crimp you are using? With the same load, gun, bullet and crimp die, I used a 1 turn crimp and never had a problem so long as the brass was pretty new. After a couple firings of full house the brass would stick in the chambers. This was with Starline brass. Never had a bullet jump it's crimp.

Camp Cook · « **Reply #18 on:** October 19, 2004, 04:36:00 AM »

Thats what I've been thinking about the crimp. I have never used so much crimp on a bullet before, but I have used this amount of crimp for several hundred shots with this load and others in my 454 Casull before this problem happened. This is why I don't understand this problem.
Thanks again for any help,
Cam

stuffit · « **Reply #19 on:** October 31, 2004, 12:11:10 AM »

Once, in my younger and more adventurous days, I used a small drop of Elmers epoxy on the side of each .454 bullet I was seating to make it less likely to jump the crimp when fired (this definitely ties up the revolver). Results indicated too much pressure, so I went to pull them all. What worked was to slightly "seat" the bullets just a fraction and then pull them. They were still very difficult, and sometimes a collet puller was the only way (which is real hard on the bullets). But this maneuver did make it possible to pull most of them with an RCBS inertia puller, outside, pounding on an oak stump.

My notion on this remains the same. Get those bullets out and analyze the powder. Weigh it, and look at it carefully, even if you have to drill a hole in the side of the case of one of your loads (I realize how abhorrent this notion is), to get the powder out.
Best of luck in sorting this out. My interest here is peaked. I'd love to get my hands on one of the loads and dissect it myself. There IS a logical explanation.
:wink:
stuffit

Camp Cook · « **Reply #20 on:** November 04, 2004, 04:45:23 AM »

I finally got around to successfully pulling 4 of the bullets apart.

:shock: "WOW" :shock: I've never had such a hard time doing this.

stufit ... I first seated the bullet a bit deeper like you suggested then removed the die from my RCBS Rockchucker press, locked a pair of vise grips onto the bullet and started to pull. I must have used way to much crimp because it took just about everything I had to get these 4 bullets out it actually pulled the rim off of the brass on a couple of the rounds that I tried .
I weighed the powder charge and they where exactly 31gr's Hodgdon's Lil-Gun powder which is not supposed to be a hot load. The powder was very compressed and had to be stirred up to get it to dump out of the case.
I'd like to send you a round but with me being in Canada don't know how I can do that. I've now marked the bullet box and set them aside for now and won't touch them until I get the proper RCBS bullet pulling collet.
Cam

Rmouleart · « **Reply #21 on:** November 04, 2004, 07:41:09 AM »

That sounds like a compressed load to me, and if you seated deeper than what was listed, now your causing very high pressures, and LilGun is known to spike high at times,when compressing to that degree, as long as you are on the crimp groove you should be safe, but in tern you need to lower you amount of powder, start at the min and work your way up on that load, stop before your carts start separating and sticking in the gun, make eight bullets for each load, that should display any problems if present, if that don't work, you may have undersized cylinders, as I spoke of in post originally.
I back off LilGun, due to I had some weird results using it in my 454 Casull, and it did not shoot tight enough groups out of my SRH 454 Casull, compared to W296, using Hornady 300gr XTP's...Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

JerseyJoe · « **Reply #22 on:** November 04, 2004, 07:52:24 AM »

CC. I just read an article about a guy who was testing a new Savage Muzzle loader that can use smokeless powder. This guy shot thousands rounds from until he used "LIL GUN" powder. Turns out the powder ignited and exploded splitting the barrel, splintering the wood stock and breaking the scope in two and sending the pieces up to 75 yds away!

Camp Cook · « **Reply #23 on:** November 04, 2004, 09:53:32 AM »

I think that I am going to send the powder back and only use H110 from now one.
Cam

Abearir · « **Reply #24 on:** June 03, 2005, 08:08:08 AM »

Maybe you already know, but there is a recall for LilGun powder.....high pressure.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #25 on:** June 03, 2005, 08:33:38 AM »

The original post was from Sept. '04. My guess is the problems has been solve by now but if anybody has any 'Lil Gun powder and is unsure of the age I'd suggest you contact the manufacturer post haste or toss it in the trash.

Sourdough · « **Reply #26 on:** June 04, 2005, 09:48:07 AM »

Sounds like you may have too much crimp. I can always pull my bullets with the inertia puller. Sometimes it takes 4 or 5 times to start the bullet moving, but they always come out. Seems like I only use a quarter to half turn on my Lee Crimp die. Never had any problem with the crimps not holding under recoil. Good luck.

Camp Cook · « **Reply #27 on:** June 29, 2005, 08:07:18 PM »

I was just talking to a fellow that works for the Speer bullet company. He also agrees that I have to much crimp and advised me to freeze the bullets for a couple of days then try pulling the bullets.