Author Topic: stupid import laws (Read 2175 times)

kevin.303 · « **on:** February 03, 2003, 08:25:24 AM »

the other day while cruising the cabelas website i had to stop and make sure that my eye's had not decieved me. there was my holy grail, .358 norma magnum factory brass. so imagine my frustration when after filling out the order form, i was informed that they will not ship this item to canada! i had the same problem when tried to buy a pair of 5-shot clips for my .303. is there any way around these stupid resrictions and why do we even have them?

Rick Teal · « **Reply #1 on:** February 03, 2003, 08:54:56 AM »

This all started with Canada and the US acceding to the Treaty of the Americas which was an invention of the Latin American Dictators who were deathly afraid of an armed populace. For us this treaty required import and export permits for the movement of guns, ammunition and their parts (brass) across the borders. For a while the US did not require export permits for shipments to Canada that were under $100 US in value.

It appears that 9-11 has changed this (for the worse) if Cabellas won't ship a small order of brass to Canada.

I bought some .338 WinMag brass to fireform into .358 Normas. I understand it may take some time for the reformed .338 brass to flow enough to match the length of the Norma brass.

kevin.303 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 04, 2003, 05:56:16 AM »

does anyone know how i would obtain one of these import permits. how much trouble would i get in if i drove down to the grand forks cabelas and "smuggled" my brass back. i don't know about down there, but i don't need to show my license to purchase brass, or at least i've never been asked. it seems that 9-11 has become an excuse for a lot of things. the other day my bank wouldn't cash a third party check because of what happened on sept. 11. what does somthing that happened 2 years ago in a foreign country have to do with cashing a $20 check? :evil:

Double D · « **Reply #3 on:** February 04, 2003, 07:12:48 AM »

Oh you don't wanna do that. If you smuggle the brass back without an export license you can be arrestted and put in jail, your car siezed along with the item you smuggling.

That's what can happen. What most likely will happen assuming you get checked, is your brass will be siezed you will sit at the border for a couple of hours while your paper work is processed. You will be given the opportunity to collect $500 to pay your smuggling penalty, that's USD not Beaver Bucks. (Credit Cards cheerfully accepted.) Or you will be sent on your way and later you will get a letter saying you owe the U.S. governement $500.

Then everytime you come to the U.S. you are guarenteed a free Custom Exam.

This use to be one of my most fun things to do until I started wearing a suit and tie.

Remember there is a war going on!

Rick Teal · « **Reply #4 on:** February 04, 2003, 01:34:16 PM »

In Canada you can use an "International Import Certificate" (IIC) and these are relatively easy to obtain. You simply write to or call Foreign Affairs (DFAIT) in Ottawa and they will send you a form to complete. The certificate is free, and providing there are no glitches, you will receive it in short order. You are required to report to them with the details once the items are received.

The problem arises with the US exporter. They must get a US export permit which costs them, and can take several months to obtain.

9-11 led to a prohibition against US merchants selling guns to non-residents, and I understand that if we obtain one we cannot cross the border back into Canada with it. I don't know if this prohibition applies to ammunition components as well. It might be worth a call to DFAIT to see if there is a way you can bring components in when you return from the US.

I wouldn't try smuggling if I were you. In this day and age, a notation will probably be made on your licence file, and it could lead to your licence being revoked. Just not worth the chance.

Double D · « **Reply #5 on:** February 04, 2003, 04:35:02 PM »

In the U.S. the Exporter has to be registered the with the U.S. State department. Registration is expensive. Don't have the book handy, but memory says $1000 USD a year. Then when they have a export they apply for the Export license. both parties have to be registered. the U.S. party with the State Department. I don't remember who has does the Canada registration, but it has to be done. Then and only then can the license to export be issued.

Non residents have always been prohibited from buy guns in the U.S. 9-11 simply clarified what a non resident was. The elimination of the Canadian exemption came about in April 1999 at the request of the Canadian Government.

upnorth · « **Reply #6 on:** February 05, 2003, 03:54:10 AM »

hey kevin.303, I also live in winnipeg. Just this past weekend I drove down to cabelas in grand forks to pick up some powder. I do this on a regular basis, and bring back brass as well. I have never had a problem bringing it back. I declare it, they ask to see it and my f.a.c.(yes, I still have a valid one!). I also bring my registration cert. for my muzzleloader as well. As long as you meet the legal requirements for purchasing it in canada, you can import up to 8kg of blackpowder or smokeless powder without an explosive importers permit. Importing brass is not an issue, because it is not considered "ammunition". If you want to send me an e-mail, I'll give you the number for canada customs-emerson and you can ask them. You will find, however, that you probably know more about this than they do. My e-mail is: cameronwhite@shaw.ca.

Double D · « **Reply #7 on:** February 05, 2003, 04:12:31 AM »

Gentlemen,

Just keep in mind when you do this you are in clear violation of U.S. export laws.

No whining when you get caught.

Rick Teal · « **Reply #8 on:** February 05, 2003, 09:57:15 AM »

Tom:

I understand that export licences and export permits are separate entities. Each export of this type of good from the US must be covered by an export permit. If a US company has a regular business relationship with a company in Canada, I understand they can get a type of export permit that allows shipments at regular or irregular intervals, however, this wouldn't apply to the casual Canadian customer.

Jim H · « **Reply #9 on:** February 05, 2003, 04:01:38 PM »

My experience is similar to Upnorth.
My understanding of the situation is the export permit requirement is a US law :eek: that applies on US soil, :shock: and/or to US residents. :-D I'm not aware of a Canadian law that prohibits importing brass - and when you declare the brass as you cross the border, you are on Canadian soil, reporting to Canadian Officials, that are charged with upholding Canadian Law.

In theory, you may have technically violated American law, :oops: but at the time you cross the border, they have no jurisdiction...... You imported brass, not exported it. The retailer you bought it from did not export it either........ Just don't get caught driving to the border!!!! :twisted:

And regardless of what our 'Merican friends may believe

, Last time I checked, American laws did not apply to Canadians on Canadian soil. Leastways, not yet. And since you did not violate any Canadian law, you haven't done anything wrong - in Canada. If US authorities catch you on the way to the border, don't expect to be allowed back south.

:wink: :wink: (Kinda like all those 'Mericans that go to Cuba by flying out of Canada.) :wink: :wink:

If you do not declare at the border, you are smuggling into Canada, and breaking Canadian law on Canadian soil. You're in trouble.

The real question is --- Why doesn't the US doesn't want us to have brass or 50 cal's?

Double D · « **Reply #10 on:** February 05, 2003, 10:04:20 PM »

Why don't the americans want you to take that brass north? Because the Canadian Government asked us not to let you.

Bet you didn't know that you are required to stop at the U.S.Side and declare that brass before you leave the U.S. and tell Customs you are taking it out.

For that matter anyone, even U.S. folks going hunting are required to stop on the U.S. side and declare firearms going out before they leave the U.S.

Fortunately for everyone right now there is a lack of enforcement on the U.S. side. But with this new Homeland Security Agency things sound like they might change. Lots of manpower available to do things they haven't been able to do before.

Jim H · « **Reply #11 on:** February 06, 2003, 03:18:32 PM »

Sir:

To clarify - if it is an export law, one obviously must declare as one exports - thus my comment about not getting caught on the way to the border.

If it is an export law, and the Canadians asked for it - ask yourself why does it apply to exports from the US to all countries??? I would suggest that if Canada did not wish to have brass imported, they would have put on an importation ban on brass. It is not illegal to import brass into Canada, that I am aware of.

My main point is that Canada is a sovereign nation, and foreign laws do not apply to Canadians on Canadian soil. If one chooses to break foreign laws on foreign soil, be prepared for the consequences. Be prepared not to re-enter that country either.

You need to consider the Canadian perspective on this. We are talking about importing brass, not exporting it. It is only exporting if we are on American soil, and heading to the border. Once we are on Canadian soil, we are not breaking any Canadian law, and at that point, the american law does not apply to us unless we go to the US again.

Is the return worth the risk??? Not to me.

I just see it as another American attempt to bully the world to suit their agenda. Look beyond the hype and propaganda.

Double D · « **Reply #12 on:** February 06, 2003, 03:58:32 PM »

So poof you just appear at the border with brass?

Seems to me you said you were going to get this brass in U.S. Are you forgetting that just before you enter Canada you leave the U.S. and if you attempt to leave the U.S. with that brass you have committed a crime in the U.S. Doesn't make it legal to export contrary to one countries laws because it legal to import in another.

There use to be an exemption for Canadians to take this sort of stuff out. Everyone else in the world had to have a license. When Alan Rock changed your laws about firearm registration and ammunition purchases he requested the exemption be changed to control free flow into Canada.

Quote

To clarify - if it is an export law, one obviously must declare as one exports - thus my comment about not getting caught on the way to the border.

Don't get caught, or what? Sounds like your advocating criminal activity to me. And, it's still a crime even if you don't get caught.

You are absolutely correct U.S. laws do not apply on Canadian. But Canadians on U.S. soil are not exempt from U.S. Law. and vica versa I might add.

Just because you make it to Canadian soil doesn't change the fact that you violated the law in the U.S.

And you are forgeting in order to import brass you first have to export it from some where. Poof!, you appear at the border?

I don't see it as bullying the world to suit an agenda. I look at it as respect. When I go to Canada I respect your laws and Customs, we only ask that you do the same when you come to ours.

upnorth · « **Reply #13 on:** February 07, 2003, 04:19:45 AM »

Boy, I'm sure kevin303 didn't expect to open up such a can of worms! After reading double d"s posts, I checked the ATF website (www.atf.treas.gov) and went to their atf online f.a.q. section (#2) and he's right. It is illegal for nonresident alliens to purchase firearms or ammo in the u.s. So, I called the cabela's store in east grand forks, nd and asked the store the same question. "not a problem at all" was the response. The next call was to the sherrifs dept. I was told that if I was stopped for speeding for example, and he found powder, or bullets, or primers, as long as I had a reciept I would be ok! Yes, I told them I was from canada and am taking the stuff back home. So while i'm sure no one in this chat room is advocating blatantly disregarding u.s. federal law, it sure seems like the one's who should be enforcing it don't seem to worry to much about it. However, If we choose to purchase products in the u.s., then the risk is totally ours.

kevin.303 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 07, 2003, 06:01:21 AM »

i've never seen one of my posts get this much response!! it's been most helpful. i love this site!! :grin:

dakotashooter2 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 07, 2003, 07:05:21 AM »

How about this. 100 feet of wire leader and a couple of hundred treble hooks. Whala. Now you are importing fishing lures.

Double D · « **Reply #16 on:** February 07, 2003, 11:50:20 AM »

First my apologies for causing such a storm here, It was not my intent. I intended to share information that might keep our Canadian neightbors from having an unpleasant experience when they visit the U.S.

I am sorry you were given misleading information by Cabela's, I hope they start doing a better job educating their employees in the future.

To clarify a point that was made. ATF enforces the Federal Firearms dealing with the Sale and interstate transport of firearms.

A Deputy Sheriff/City Policeman/State Policeman enforces State and local law. The Deputy Sheriff/City Policeman/State Policeman may give you a traffic citation for speeding but would in most cases not have the first clue you had committed a Federal violation. Even if he did he would have limited if any authority to take action.

U.S. Customs has the responsiblity for enforcing Federal law dealing with export of firearms and ammunition. Go to this website for more on the U.S. export laws. http://www.pmdtc.org/

Rigth now both ATF and U.S. Customs are pretty lax on their enforcement efforts in the arena. That doesn't mean they don't, it just they don't do it every day. That is subject to change. This new Homeland Secuirty has both Agencies moving from treasury and being reorganized. Who know what the future holds.

May I suggest you Canadians visit www.midwayusa.com and http://www.grafs.com and check their ordering info for international shipments. May cost a little more with shipping and fees, but it's cheaper than the time, expense and hassle of driving down and picking the stuff up. And it's darn sure cheaper than bail or a fine if you get caught.

DD

Jim H · « **Reply #17 on:** February 08, 2003, 06:55:16 PM »

The problem with typing messages is that the tone and the intent of the comments do not necessarily come across correctly (something like 90% of communication is in inflection, and expression, 10% is in the words).............It also doesn't help that I tend to make cynical comments.... I suspect the other Canadians reading my message may have caught on, but there are cultural differences in our countries, and some of the intended humour/sarcasm may not translate well.

My apologies for p---ing you off, it was not my intent. I was actually agreeing with most of your points --- thus the comment about never going back, if one chooses to violate the law. I may not agree with the law, but I respect and obey.....Hell, I even registered all my firearms, but that's another related topic...

The ridiculous part of all this?

-----the brass that started this, and the stuff I would like to import from the US, was made in Scandinavia........ (Midsouth is selling Laupa .223 sorted in .1 grn weight batches - and they don't export.)

:twisted: But I'm still cynical about export restrictions, when we supposedly have a free trade agreement with the US.

Jim

Double D · « **Reply #18 on:** February 09, 2003, 01:36:57 AM »

Oh that Free trade did not have something to do with setting aside gun laws and import/export restrictions, and hunting regulations.

If freetrade did that, when Alan Rock decided that registering guns was a good source of revenue, I would have been up there buying up all those guns that hit the market dirt cheap that you folks refused to pay to register.

Or better yet that big whittail buck that I use to chase out back of my place, wouldn't have got away by jumping the fence from Montana to Alberta.

But that's not what free trade is about or for.

Free trade brought Canada a brain drain with Canadian Doctors, Nurses and Engineers flocking down to the U.S. to take U.S. jobs at 2/3 the pay of U.S. Doctors, Nurses and Engineers. This put U.S. Doctors, Nurses and Engineers out of work and made shortage of the same skills in Canada. Not good for either country. Who benefited from that, the FAT-CAT's

Free trade lowered then eliminated most trade and tariff barriers. It's goal was to increase the flow of goods back and forth across the border. A flow that was already quite healthy.

The elimination of tariffs should have lowered prices, but it didn't. The amount that normally would have been collected for tariffs was still collected and now became profit. If you were a stock holder that was good. But the government had to make those lost revenues up and one way Alan Rock saw to do it was to collect revenue by gun registration.

God forbid the Democrats down here get wind of that. I can hear it now, don't tax the poor, tax the rich gunowners, it's not registration at all.

By the way I see that Graf and Sons has Lapua brass and they do export.

upnorth · « **Reply #19 on:** February 09, 2003, 06:02:36 AM »

double d makes some good points. but from my perspective, and I'm sure a lot of other canadians perspectives, here is why we do not mail order from the u.s. : If I buy something on credit card, the exchange rate is almost 60%(1 us dollar costs us 1.60 canadian.), Now, it's bad enough that we were forced into registering, so the last thing I'm going to do is order through the mail and freely give them the info on what my personal habits are, what I'm buying etc. Paranoid? very. The nice thing about buying up here, is that the stores are suppose to be enforcing the law for the gov't (recording what ammo you buy and your pal number), but the stores have lost so much business in gun sales over this, that they cannot afford to lose ammo sales too, so they don't check your licence. So, I will continue to do what I must in order to keep doing what I love, while not giving our gov't any more info than I have to. If that means violating another country's export laws, then...............

kevin.303 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 11, 2003, 06:21:07 AM »

midwayusa is much cheaper then cabelas. i'm assuming the reason why norma brass is expensive is that it is newly made and not recycled brass