Author Topic: More 44 mag loading questions (Read 1112 times)

bja105 · « **on:** May 17, 2005, 05:48:54 PM »

I mounted a 4x Tasco on my 44 mag barrel, using a weaver base. The rifle is much more comfortable to shoot now. I tried out 2 loads, at JHP45's suggestion, A mid range load of blue dot, and a full power load of H110, both with a jacketed 200g bullet.

The blue dot load was as advertised, dirty, but pleasant to shoot. The H110 certainly gave more recoil. Accuracy was not great with either, about 3" at 50 yards (about the same as with the .243 barrel.) These were my first groups, so I haven't started finding an optimal front rest position, forestock screw torque... I just needed a starting point.

Questions

Loading handgun ammo in a rifle, is crimp strength a SIGNIFICANT factor in accuracy? Meaning, is my crimp a variable I should be playing with as well as powder charge, seating depth, etc?

Both loads left a slight carbon residue on the length of the case, as well as on the receiver/barrel junction. Is this normal? or is it a sign of too low or high pressure?

What are excessive pressure signs for handgun cartridges? I know flattened or ridged primers, what else?

Thanks
Jason

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #1 on:** May 17, 2005, 06:34:58 PM »

Quote from: bja105

Questions

Loading handgun ammo in a rifle, is crimp strength a SIGNIFICANT factor in accuracy? Meaning, is my crimp a variable I should be playing with as well as powder charge, seating depth, etc?

Both loads left a slight carbon residue on the length of the case, as well as on the receiver/barrel junction. Is this normal? or is it a sign of too low or high pressure?

What are excessive pressure signs for handgun cartridges? I know flattened or ridged primers, what else?

Thanks
Jason

You're shooting a light for caliber bullet over a slow for cartridge powder when you use that H-110 load. Put a heavy crimp on it and see if the sooting problem goes away. That carbon trace can also be due to oil traces in the chamber. You may also see an improvement in accuracy because of more uniform burn.

I much prefer 240 grain and heavier bullets in the .44 Mag. If you have any around you might try them. Crimp will be a lot less critical and accuracy should be better.

For pistol caliber cartridges, I just stay within book rather than relying on pressure signs. You are way past all safe limits when common signs show clearly. I would regard case sticking or a noticably looser primer pocket as a sign of EXTREME high pressure. If you have a good four place micrometer and a lot of skill in its use, you can establish the average expansion at the pressure ring with factory ammo, and limit your loads to no more expansion than that, but sticking to the book is a lot easier.

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #2 on:** May 18, 2005, 05:01:06 AM »

My best loads for the 44 mag are 22.5 grs. of H110 and a 300 gr. XTP,but this is a max load,and it chrono's 1639 fps. Seat the bullet as far out as the crimping groove will let you (the second groove) and make sure you're not into the lands. 1" at 50 yds is what mine gets even after I reamed it to 445 super mag. Digger

Awf Hand · « **Reply #3 on:** May 18, 2005, 07:40:57 AM »

I've loaded a few rounds for the 357 Handi, and I've found that one key to consistent loads is the consistancy of the crimp. You'll find that if you trim all of your cases to the same length, you'll see one variable removed. If you think about how the crimp grips the bullet, this makes sense.
H-110 prefers a heavy crimp, even with heavy weight bullets. As mentioned above, you're on the lighter end of the .429" offerings. I'd consider a heavier bullet, or a faster burning powder.
I've also had good luck with rifle primers, rather than pistol primers. If you're willing to go to the trouble of primer pocket reaming, you can make the holes a bit deeper to accept the large rifle primers.

Primarily, though, learn good bench technique with the NEF, it's preferences are a bit different than most any rifle out there.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 18, 2005, 08:30:14 AM »

Flattend primers...craterd primer strikes...blown primers...a expansion ring at the base of the cartridge...sticking cases...the pressure signs are the same as with any other type cartridge...sometimes just not as noticable..

A good firm crimp improves the cartridge performanmce... powder manufactures recommend them with certain powders to insure complete ignition of the powder...as been stated...follow the published instructions with the loading data...it usually works just fine

Mac

bja105 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 18, 2005, 09:27:28 AM »

Thanks

I think I'll work up to some full power bluedot loads, and crimp a bit more.

Its a real pain working up loads with this handi. It is so sensitive to barrel temperature, and to sandbag position. I never know what variable is making my groups worse.

Longcruise · « **Reply #6 on:** May 18, 2005, 06:45:39 PM »

Quote

Flattend primers...craterd primer strikes...blown primers...a expansion ring at the base of the cartridge...sticking cases...the pressure signs are the same as with any other type cartridge...sometimes just not as noticable..

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

I'm with leftoverdj on this. When the .44 mag or other pistol cartridges begin to show the above pressure signs you are waaaay beyond the saami limits for the pistol cartridge. Don't remember offhand what the saami limit for .44 mag is but 40,000 psi comes to mind (somebody give me an accurate psi fig on this). Sticking cases, blown primers, etc are signs that come along around 60 to 70 thou psi I would think.

OTOH, maybe it's perfectly ok to push the .44 mag to 7mm mag pressures in a handi??? :eek:

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** May 18, 2005, 07:07:50 PM »

SAAMI 44 mag max average pressure is 36kpsi....

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

Longcruise · « **Reply #8 on:** May 18, 2005, 07:29:12 PM »

Quote

SAAMI 44 mag max average pressure is 36kpsi....

Thanks Quick.

Given that max pressure, it would seem that unless you are willing to wander into pressure ranges well beyond the saami max, then the only way to truly monitor pressure would be with a strain gauge such as the Oehler system provides.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 18, 2005, 07:56:16 PM »

Well...I've loaded hot for a 44 mag before...nothing in the 60k psi range...I've blown primers...had a bunch of stickey cases...and saw some expansion rings form...so...I don't think it was to far over SAAMI range...but definatly not your normal loadings...also...with some older brass...had a few case seperations as well...as I recall...most of the loads were loaded for a Model 29...others for a custom Dan Wesson...nothing for a Handi though...

Mac

warf73 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 18, 2005, 11:59:30 PM »

Your carbon residue can be from low pressure.(Guessing thats what it is)
I get the same thing in my Cowboy Action loads, they are on the very light side of the load list.

Warf

Longcruise · « **Reply #11 on:** May 19, 2005, 05:38:42 AM »

Quote

I've blown primers...had a bunch of stickey cases...and saw some expansion rings form...so...I don't think it was to far over SAAMI range...but definatly not your normal loadings...also...with some older brass...had a few case seperations as well...as I recall...most of the loads were loaded for a Model 29...others for a custom Dan Wesson...nothing for a Handi though...

Well, to each his own, but that's pretty hot. Especially for a 629. Not sure I'd do that with a dan wesson either but am not familiar with the firearm. I did quite a bit of hot loading with 320 gr LBT's in my Super blackhawk until I lost interest. Was able to exceed 1300 fps with that bullet without any particular pressure signs and that was enough for me :grin:

Once again, to each his own, but if you can get a 240 up to 1400 or 1500 in your revolver with H110, that same load should have you pushing 1600 or 1700 in a rifle.

I think your loads might well have been in the 60 range :shock:

safetysheriff · « **Reply #12 on:** May 19, 2005, 11:42:02 AM »

wc-820 bulk powder, such as from www.patsreloading.com has given me excellent results with the .44 mag', expecially with the Win' WLP primer. wc-820 is significantly (?) faster than H-110. Another option is the use of Accurate Arms AA#9 to achieve better results with a light-weight bullet such as 200 grs' in the .44 mag'.

G. Sitton from Petersen's 'Hunting' used to say that the crimp was Extremely Important in the .44 mag' and that proper trimming of cases to a consistent length was necessary to achieve a consistent, proper crimp.

i'd try the bulk powder, and i'd also try a little heavier bullet like the Remington 210 gr' JHP, which Dick Metcalf called his 'anywhere, anytime' bullet for the .44 mag' when he didn't know how large or how small the deer would be!

take care,

SS'

JPH45 · « **Reply #13 on:** May 21, 2005, 07:51:53 PM »

bja105, Go back and look, the H110 loads I've posted are with 270 or 300 grian bullets. I only use 200's for plinking loads, they loose to much velocity and energy over distance to be any good for hunting. Lots of folks are using surplus WC820 in their 44's and gtting good results from plinking loads to full house. Yeah, the Blue Dot will be dirty, but is is consistant, I'll take consistant anyday of the week. I've been playing with AA#2 of late for plinking loads, but only have magnum primers at present, which are a bit hot for such an easy starting powder. the H110 sould work really well with 240's and heavier, may want to try some 2400 and 4227 as well. The Blue Dot will likely top out befroe you get full velocity.

I think that all the talk about loading hot was a result of your asking about pressure signs which went somewhere you didn't intend. however, if I was going to load a 44 hot, the Handi would be the platform of choice. <<<<>>>> I have loaded my 44 with starting loads for the 445 Super Mag, seating the bullet out as far as possible, I gained a measley 100 fps with 240 grainers. If faster is desired reaming to the 445 SuperMag is the way to go, you can easily reach 2000 fps with 250 grainers. That's a lot of whomp. You can easily get 300 rainers to 1800 fps. Thats the equivilent of factory 45-70 loads.

The thing that has come clearest to me about the 44 is just how well it does at pistol velocities. Two deer I have killed were taken with cast bulets driven at 1275 fps. Not the velocity that most look for from rifle length barrel. I believe today that a 265 - 300 grian bullet at 1400 fps will offer the best balance between accuracy and recoil. I'm currently using 24.5 grains of AA 1680 (surplus WC 680 is the same thing) for a bit over 1400 fps with a 265 grain cast bullet. This load will kill anything I"m likely to point the rifle at.

Strive for accuracy. Rememebr that anythig that goes at least as fast as you would expect from a revolver is going to do the same job.

bja105 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 26, 2005, 03:57:12 PM »

Thanks JHP45,

I'll get some heavier bullets when I get some more money. I've got PLENTY of other bullets, loads, and calibers to play with for now. In the mean time, I loaded some max loads of blue dot with a heavier crimp. I'll play with the 44 this weekend, as well as my Swiss K-31. (I highly recommend the K-31 to anyone who reloads. Its the best $99 rifle I can imagine.)

I love this forum. Truth is, I don't like the Handi Rifle at all. Its not what I was hoping for(accurate, consistent...) But I really like the bunch of guys on this forum.

De41mag · « **Reply #15 on:** May 27, 2005, 06:50:37 PM »

Ditch;

That 300gr load for your 44 mag. is the same as mine except I use a 300gr. Speer Bullet. Great Accuracy even at 100yds.

Dennis

DPRinks · « **Reply #16 on:** May 28, 2005, 04:22:46 PM »

BJA;
The first thing to do is slug your barrel and find out the bore and groove diameters.
When you said 200gr factory bullets, the first thing I thought was the .44-40 bullets by Rem. and Win., which are .426, and almost all .44-40 and .44mag barrels are .428 to .432".
Trying to shoot a bullet that more or less rattles down the barrel is a waste of time, jacketed bullets should be the groove diameter, cast bullets should be .001 to .002 over the groove diameter.
On all but .38sp SWC's at less than 800fps, I use gas checks, I also use a good lube on all bullets, even the .38's.
I would recommend you start over.
Don

bja105 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 30, 2005, 06:32:07 PM »

DPRinks, these are all jacketed loads.

I tried out the max blue dot/200g load today. About 2 inches at 50 yards, so I think its getting close to acceptable. Unfortunately, It's still throwing the occasional flier 8 INCHES HIGH! This rifle is driving me nuts. Why do my 60 year old military surplus rifles with open sights consistently out shoot my scoped handi?

MtJerry · « **Reply #18 on:** May 31, 2005, 05:35:20 AM »

bja105,

I am willing to bet some serious money that your bore is oversized. When I got mine, I was keyholing cast 240gr's at 50 yards.

Slugged thed bore and found it was .432 dia.

That size bore REQUIRES that you use jacketed bullets that are AT LEAST .430 (Only hornady makes those ... I think?)

You can find all kinds of cast bullets to buy on the internet that can be purchased sized at .432. I have not tried that yet since I am getting pretty good results with Hornady 300gr'ers and 2400.

My point is simple, get larger diameter bullets and you will be very impressed with the accuracy!

safetysheriff · « **Reply #19 on:** June 01, 2005, 02:18:44 PM »

is there possibly more felt recoil with the Handi than the older rifles you've used, causing you to anticipate the shot? i have caught myself at times anticipating recoil. i do better when i remind myself that recoil doesn't really hurt in 99% of the situations. (some have actually detached their retinas from recoil, however, with hard-hitting magnums)

what primer are you using, and are you seating them all properly? if this was a case of vertical stringing i'd look at inconsistent ignition as one source of a problem....but suspect your problem lies elsewhere.

are you resting the rifle consistently, and is the rifle rest itself in a consistent spot on the bench. have you removed the sling swivel studes? have to watch those things off the benches i use at the state range here in n/e ohio.

JPH45 · « **Reply #20 on:** June 01, 2005, 02:41:32 PM »

I've not shot my Handi with many jacketed bullets at all, but even though jacketed may be more forgiving than cast when it comes to bore size, once you hit .003" inch or so, rattling is rattling. I figure a lot of what I thought was bad bullets or bad loads in the beginning with my rifle was more related to bore/bullet diameter relationship problems. Hornady bullets are .430, I'd suggest trying some of these to see if they don't help the problem. I do agree that the handi ought to at shoot at least as well as a surplus military rifle that has had the bejesus kicked out of it. That is why I worked so hard, so long tryig to get mine to shoot. Hang in there and keep reporting the results of your efforts. The more you tell us, the more we can help. What loads are you currently shooting?

bja105 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 02, 2005, 05:08:25 PM »

Quote from: safetysheriff

is there possibly more felt recoil with the Handi than the older rifles you've used, causing you to anticipate the shot? i have caught myself at times anticipating recoil. i do better when i remind myself that recoil doesn't really hurt in 99% of the situations. (some have actually detached their retinas from recoil, however, with hard-hitting magnums)
I don't think I'm flinching. I do ok with heavy loads in my vz-24 with a steel buttplate. 44 loads I've shot don't seem bad at all, especialy with the weight I've put in the butt stock.
what primer are you using, and are you seating them all properly? if this was a case of vertical stringing i'd look at inconsistent ignition as one source of a problem....but suspect your problem lies elsewhere.
Winchester large pistol, seated with a lee autoprime. Do you think i'd see any advantage with large rifle primers?

are you resting the rifle consistently, and is the rifle rest itself in a consistent spot on the bench. have you removed the sling swivel studes? have to watch those things off the benches i use at the state range here in n/e ohio.
I removed the front sling stud, as it was biting me! I'm pretty good about keeping my sandbag positions consistant. Since I had problems with the action opening with the .243 barrel, i'm reluctant to rest it on the receiver only.

I don't think I've got a correct trigger pull for this rifle. I've always used a "suprise trigger." I slowly increase trigger pressure until the trigger breaks, suprising me, sort of. I wonder if this is causing problems with the transfer bar. Would this cause these wild fliers?

JHP45, I've shot 240g factory loads, before I got the scope mounted. Since scoping, I've only fired handloads with 200g jacketed hollow points. I don't know the brand, the local shop sells them bulk. I've tried a near max load of h110, a below minimum load of blue dot, and a max load of blue dot. I don't have the exact charges in front of me.
I think I also might have issues with crimping. I've never loaded for pistol, so I don't have a grasp of what a heavy or light crimp looks like.

dgii · « **Reply #22 on:** June 02, 2005, 06:13:14 PM »

I seat the bullets to the depth I want first. Then crimp them as the last step. Trimming the cases to the same length helps with the crimp setup. I sometimes go and look at factory ammo to see how heavy they crimp some bullets in the case.

I would try a Magnum pistol primer if the load data calls for them. CCI or Federal make large pistol magnum primers. If you try new primers work the load back up.

Good shooting and best of luck on the accuracy, Dale.