411/356 Win?

[mart]

I thought I would throw this idea out as a possibility and see what your opinions would be. I just had the brain storm that it might be interesting to rebore my 94 356 Win to 411 and see how it performs. Might have to blow the case out a bit like an Ackley improved but I am betting it would be a great short to mid range thumper. I realize that more cost effective combinations are available but we shooters have never been accused of being frugal. The new Hornady bullet for the 405 ought to do the job and of course cast bullets should perform well. Any thoughts? Mart.

[Advocate]

Great idea!   However,   J.D. Jones did substantiall what you're contemplating with his .411 JDJ, a .444 Marlin necked down to .411.  In a hand gun (Thompson Center Contender)  he gets about 1700-1800  with a  300 and 400 grain bullets.   You should get about the same, maybe better considering the longer barrel of the carbine.   If you compare the .308 and the .444 marlin shell casings, you will notice that they're substantially identical except  that the .444 is rimmed and is a little longer than the .308, but the diameters are the same.   Hence, .411 JDJ loading data would be a good starting point for your .411-356.  Performance in the .411 JDJ should be substantially similar to what you would achieve with your .411-356.

The only problem is that most bullets are round noses or spitzers and not necessarily suitable for use in your rifle's tubular magazine.  I'm sure there are some flat point cast bullets that would be suitable though.  

I had a similar idea  to do  this with the .308 win case. Neck it up to .411 with an Ackley shoulder.  This was done with the 30-06 case and it's called the .400 Brown-Whelen.  I think they get about  2.500 fps with a 300 grain bullet and 2200  fps with a 400 grain bullet.   I  thought it would be cool  to do on the 308 case, just using the 400 Brown Whelen and stopping short of the 30-06 length. I was set to do it with one of my mil surp mausers. Something different to do with the thousands of .308 brass I have laying around.  I was really turned on about it, but got interested in something else. (Blonde hair, long legs, short dress).  The .400 Brown Whelen was written up in Wolfe Publications "Big Bore Rifles and Cartridges" if you have a yen to read it.

I thought the .411-308 would be kind of cool.   It would duplicate the .411 JDJ which has been throughly proven on big game by J.D. Jones and others. Also,  you could use .41 cal pistol bullets  and cast bullet loads.  As I get older I really like big bore rounds.  There is a different dynamic to shooting those lumbering, big bore heavy bullets and seeing the big round holes they make in things.  

Keep us posted on how you make out with this idea.

[mart]

Advocate,

Thanks for the positive support on this idea. I don't know when or if I will get it done but it is interesting to discuss and contemplate. I didn't realize that the JDJ chamberings were so close to what I was thinking of.

As far as bullets go, it is a simple matter to swage a flat point on a round nose bullet with a pistol bullet seating die and a modified seating plug. Of course the bullet design has to be such that it will function through the short action of the 94. Using 41 mag pistol bullets would add great versatility to the project.

The 400 Brown Whelen is on my to get list. In fact this weekend we have a big gun show and I will be looking for a left handed Ruger 77 or Winchester 70 to trade for that can be used in that project. I have the Big Bore Rifle and Cartidges and it has been invaluable as a reference. Thanks for the input. Mart.

[Advocate]

Mart:  Just wanted to follow up to my earlier post and  refer you to two articles which pertain to your idea.  One is "The .40-70 on African Plains Game" by Mike Venturino which I believe is reprinted in the Big Bore Rifles book.  The .40-70 is a 45-70 case neecked down to fire .408 bullets in Mikes newly manufactured Shiloh Sharps, witha 26" barrel.  With the 300 grain Barnes .408" bullet, he reports 2,195 fps  with 57 grains of IMR 4320.  With the 400 Grain Barnes bullet he reports 1,750 fps with 50 grains of IMR 4064.  He reported good penetration and killing power with this round on African plains game.

JD Jones wrote "The .411 JDJ on Affrican Plains Game" which I think was published in Wolfe Publication entitled Wildcats.  Jones commented on Venturino's article in this subsequent writing.  Jones used a Thomplson Center Contender with a 12.5" barrel.  This is the .444 Marlin necked down to .411.  Jones reported using the 300 grain Barnes  .411 bullet and getting 1,902 fps with 51.3 grains of H-322; and 1,824 fps with 51.5 grains of H-4895.  

With the 400 grain Barnes .411 bullet he got 1.731 fps with 48.5 grains of H-4895.

It would appear that the .411 JDJ is loaded to higher pressures than the .40-70 Sharps.   I do believe that your .411-356 wildcat lever gun would achieve the same ballistics ina  20" barrel that Jones achieves with the .411 JDJ in the 12.5" barrel.  If you're serious about this idea, you mignt enjoy and profit from reading these two articles.

[mart]

Advocate,

I don't know how serious I am yet about the project but I have both those articles and will have to go back and reread them. My wife wonders why I keep so many books and magazines about guns and reloading, but I am always going back to an article I read earlier to glean more info. Thanks for reminding me, I will read them tonight. Mart

[EDG]

Another .41 caliber fantasy could be built using the .240 Weatherby case.
Since your going to blow some money on a wildcat the expensive belted brass would not be a big deal.  Assuming the length was cut back , this round could be used in either a bolt or a lever action.
Ed

[Enforcer]

I have two rifles that will do exactly what you are speaking of.

405Win in Win M1895 with 28in barrel
300grSP 2450fps-3997fpe

416-284 Mc in Savage M99R with 26in
300gr Barnes X 2500fps-4162fpe

416-284 350gr Barnes Solid 2400fps-4475fpe

416-284 400gr Speer 2200fps-4298fpe

With the soon release of 325gr,350gr and 400gr for the 405Win.The fun will began!

[Yukon Jack]

I have a 411 Hawk being resighted at present.  It's kinda of an improved Brown-Whelen.  The shoulder is moved forward and the case is blown out.

One problem I've found of late is that Barnes has discontinued their .411 line.  Swift did the same.  Right now the only jacketed bullet I can find of any note is the Woodleigh, and they are pretty spendy.

You guys make sure you let me know if you find any 350 or 400 grain (or any in between weights) by Barnes, Swift or any other maker of note in 411 caliber, pleeeeeeaaaaaaasssssseeeeeee.

YJ

[JOE MACK]

Yukon Jack says,"One problem I've found of late is that Barnes has discontinued their .411 line."

Barnes' online catalog shows and X bullet for the .405 Winchester. Its weight is 300gr. with a diameter of .411. Hawk also has various weights in .411.

I picked up a little die set at a gun show that swages .416s down to .411. I believe Corbin made it. Works right nicely on my Rockchucker using a good lube.

Don't have a .411/.356 Win, but it sounds fairly interesting. I do have a .405Winchester Encore barrel and a Ruger #1 on order, a .411/.416Rem, a .41Whammy(.411/.350RemMag), and a .411/348Winchester. After all, only .41s are interesting!

[Yukon Jack]

I just ordered the last of the 350 grain 411 caliber X bullets that Barnes had in inventory and I could have sworn they told me that they have discontinued their 411 lineup.  I could very well be mistaken, my apologies if that is the case.  They may have meant they discontinued the 350 and 400 grain weights, not the entire caliber.

I know Swift has discontinued their line.  I am really hoping the 400 H&H catches on, that should spawn many more 411 bullets in the heavier weights, say from 350 up.

Let's keep our fingers crossed.

Joe,
What weights to you shoot in the 411/416 Remington?

YJ

[Enforcer]

I just ordered the last of the 350 grain 411 caliber X bullets that Barnes had in inventory and I could have sworn they told me that they have discontinued their 411 lineup.  I could very well be mistaken, my apologies if that is the case.  They may have meant they discontinued the 350 and 400 grain weights, not the entire caliber.

I know Swift has discontinued their line.  I am really hoping the 400 H&H catches on, that should spawn many more 411 bullets in the heavier weights, say from 350 up.

Let's keep our fingers crossed.

Joe,
What weights to you shoot in the 411/416 Remington?

YJ

My info shows these companies have bullets of .411-.412 diameter.

Hornady 300gr RNSP
Huntington 300gr RN Cast
Safari Arms 300grSP
Old Western Scrounger 300grSP
Woodleigh 300gr Weldcore SP
Barnes 300gr X,325gr X,350gr X,400gr X  


Western Cast 300gr RN(.413)
Western Cast 250gr RN(.410)
LBT 265gr Long Nosed Solid (.410)
True shot 265gr WNFP (4.11)
True Shot 215gr SWC (4.12)

Check them out,guys.

[Yukon Jack]

I know that Barnes is not producing anymore 350-400 grain X bullets at this time.  I spoke with them on the phone and got their last box of 350 X's.  Check Barnes' website, I don't think they are even listing the 411 diameter anymore.  Lots of distributer's still list them, but Barnes isn't making them.

Several companies are putting out the 300 grain, but when you move up to the heavy weights, say 350 and up, I think Woodleigh is the only game in town, at least at this time.

[Enforcer]

I know that Barnes is not producing anymore 350-400 grain X bullets at this time.  I spoke with them on the phone and got their last box of 350 X's.  Check Barnes' website, I don't think they are even listing the 411 diameter anymore.  Lots of distributer's still list them, but Barnes isn't making them.

Several companies are putting out the 300 grain, but when you move up to the heavy weights, say 350 and up, I think Woodleigh is the only game in town, at least at this time.

Yes i believe you are right.Enforcer

[Yukon Jack]

Almost forgot, Hawk does offer some of the 350 grain bullets in different jacket thicknesses.  I believe they have some 300 and 325's also.