Author Topic: #@%! (Read 1620 times)

6-24x42 · « **on:** June 11, 2005, 05:57:41 AM »

:? I am completely and utterly confused and irritated. I went out and shat my handi rifle at the range the other day and came to find that the cheap 55 grain Metal case from the super cheap remmington ammo ( my dad accidently got the wrong stuff for me, He's old and feeble) shat just as well as the WWB 45JHP. I wasn't sure weather to be happy or tict because the best 5 shat grouping is still well over 1 inch. I bought this gun to be somewhat of a tack driver. I know, it's only a $200 gun but with the results I have read about, why can't I shoot these groupings. I have a 6-24x42 barska scope on good rings. I shot it in with 60 rounds. I did the o-ring trick. And I use to shoot .22's in competition. Also how do your barrels respond to heat as far as how do they respond when you fire in rapid succession? Please help me.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 11, 2005, 06:09:47 AM »

It's hard to say why you can't get groups smaller that that...I would make sure your pulling all the way thru with the trigger after each shot...for starters...and then make sure your resting the forearm over the hinge pin of the receiver...have you tried it with and without the o-ring? If not...you need to.also..check the crown area and make sure there's not nicks or gouges around it...

Mac

mitchell · « **Reply #2 on:** June 11, 2005, 06:23:20 AM »

well i'll try and help but i would be easier if you typed shot instead shat every time.

i'm not to sure if i understand what your asking. if your asking why the 55grain remmys aren't shooting good . its caz they are the cheapest crap you can get besides wolf. also if you heating your barrel up by firing to fast your groups will still suck even if you have the best load out there. you may want to try shooting with out the o ring. and don't be to picky yet if you've only sot 60 round through it most of the time you need to shoot about 200 or so rounds or have it lapp to brake in the barrel.

Wlscott · « **Reply #3 on:** June 11, 2005, 06:52:49 AM »

Quote

well i'll try and help but i would be easier if you typed shot instead shat every time.

:-D :-D :-D

Isn't shat an old slang word for defecate?

mt3030 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 11, 2005, 08:51:25 AM »

Well, now I'm completely and utterly confused. First, I have found all Remington, even the inexpensive Remington "Yellow Box" 55 gr FMJ to shoot no worse then any other factory 55 gr FMJ, and better then some.

I guess that this just reinforces the fact that all ammo is NOT equal in even the same weapon. We also have to remember that all Handis are NOT equal, and some are going to shoot better then others. And that all shooters are NOT equal, and some are going to shoot better then others. One of my Handis in 223, which was properly broke in, and has been tryed with at least 24 different factory and handloads, from 40 to 62 grainers, is an inch rifle. I've accepted that, and can enjoy it for what it is. If I need any "tacks" driven, obviously I need to reach for a different rifle.

Have you tried having another shooter sit behind your buttstock for a few rounds? Maybe a friend or even your old and feeble Dad? If he is willing to do your running to buy ammo, he might be willing to pull the trigger a few times for you.

You bougth it to be a "tack driver"? If you are willing to invest $1000 to $1400 in a rifle and scope, then you might expect "out of box" tack driving. With the Handis, sometimes you have to work for it. Sometimes it just isn't going to be a "tack driver".

Chill. Take a deep breath. Search this forum for suggestions. I think the fix for your issue is listed somewhere on this forum. (And that might be to accept it as it is or replace it.) And I'm sure more advice will be coming.

Wally

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #5 on:** June 11, 2005, 09:22:20 AM »

The very best mine will do with factory ammo,is 1 1/2" so you've got a good one in my books. After 7 different powders and 400 rds. of assorted bullets I found the combo of 26.5 grs. H 335,40 gr.moly Vmax,and a bipod with a bag under the buttstock was the only way mine would shoot about 1/2" . If I change anything the least bit it starts going bigger. I also use the Rem. match grade primers. If you use the molys,use them for at least 15 to 25 rds.before you will see the results.If the molys work,don't clean the barrel until accuracy starts going away. Digger

myarmor · « **Reply #6 on:** June 11, 2005, 09:32:30 AM »

In my conservative amount of experiance, I can't really say a whole lot more than has been said. My guess I either:
1) You might be pulling-no disrespect. Again, have someone you feel comfortable shooting with come along. And pull through the trigger-all the way.
2) The crown on your barrel might be nicked or wrongly done. Lets hope not, but some in the past have had this problem.
3) Loose scope rings? Check them out every time next time you go out to the range. What kind of rings do you have?
4) What kind of barrel are you shooting out of? Ultralights are notorius for sketchy accuracy.
5) Let that barrel cool off after each shot. Even with a bull barrel.
Try what these guys have said. Hopefully in the end those groups will get a lot smaller. What is your average group? I know you said that they were "well over an inch", by how much?

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 11, 2005, 09:45:54 AM »

I must be just plain lucky because my 223 bull brl. shoots 1/2 in. out of the box . i used my loads , 23.5 gr. imr 4895 with 55 gr. serria bthp and fed. small rifle primers .

I tried other loads mine and factory still kept them below 1.5 in. this is off good ol sand bags set just in front of the trigger guard

mt3030 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 11, 2005, 10:00:39 AM »

stimpylu32:

Man, I love those stocks. I have a set of old stocks on a rifle being fitted with a barrel. When they come home I think I'll have to follow your lead, and find a bright color for them. (Remember:Imitation if the highest form of flattery.)

Wally

6-24x42 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 11, 2005, 11:31:28 AM »

To answer as many questions as I can:
It is a .223 handi rifle.
Well over an inch means it is 1.5 to 2 inch groupings.
I have put 200 shells through it.
I shot a 1.5 inch grouping with the cheap remmy's.
I'm irish and impatient.
I meant shot.
I will take it out tomorrow to find out about how the o-ring affects it and will try some other ammo to find out

I appreciate all the input and will let you know tomorrow. thanks again.

hellacatcher · « **Reply #10 on:** June 11, 2005, 11:38:34 AM »

The best thing to to is just shoot for the fun of it. You mite be suprised how thoes goups mite tieghten up.

mt3030 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 11, 2005, 12:22:15 PM »

O.K. Irish:

Here are a coupe factors to consider.
1) I don't think the Handi 22" barrels have the accuracy potential that the Ultr 24" or Heavy 20" barrels do. Has to do with barrel contour and stiffness. Now that is just a general rule: I'm sure there are lots of exceptions.
2) In the last 200 rounds, how well has it been cleaned? I do not mean just removing the powder residue with Hoppie #9. I mean de-coppered.
3) What is your trigger pull at? The Handis shipped in the last year have much improved triggers, but I've seen some that NO ONE could shot a good group with. A trigger breaking between 3 and 4 works good (for me)for a carry field gun. Have you had a chance to compare yours with other Handi rifles? Shooters that own or have access to several Handis can spot the bad one right away.

Hope others have some suggestions for you. Good luck.

By the way, don't worry about being Irish and impatient. My wife is Irish, and after all these years is still impatient (with me at least). But she is not rude and disrespectful.

Wally

6-24x42 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 11, 2005, 12:36:36 PM »

well I clean it after every use with a wire brush and hoppes powder solvent. I figure if I take care of it, the gun will last my entire lifetime. And the gun was purchased brand new and has a pretty good trigger pull. However, I plan to lighten it somewhat. Thanks again

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** June 11, 2005, 12:52:41 PM »

Like Wally said, powder solvent won't remove copper fouling from the bore, and if that's all you've used, you really need to clean it with a good copper solvent. Hoppes Benchrest if you're a Hoppes lover, is a good one as well as Sweet's or Butches Bore Shine.....Walmart carries Outers foaming bore cleaner and works as well as anything I've ever used, including Hoppes, and I've been a died in the wool Hoppes user for as long as I can remember....If you use the Outers, leave it in overnight, invert the rifle(scope down) half way thru the cleaning cycle to redistribut the solvent to the top half of the bore, or it just settles in the bottom of the bore and only cleans half of it...I guarantee it will be clean after this treatment without a lot of scrubbing with a bronze brush, a patch is all that is necessary. :wink:

Tim

Graybeard · « **Reply #14 on:** June 11, 2005, 12:54:57 PM »

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well I clean it after every use with a wire brush and hoppes powder solvent.

If that's how you clean it and you have 200 rounds thru it I think you've answered your own question as to why it won't shoot better. Get some copper remover and do the job right. I like Barnes CR10 best but Sweets is excellent and Hoppe's copper remover isn't too bad. After you get the build up copper out it might actually begin to group.

Norseman112 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 11, 2005, 02:17:25 PM »

I say have patience, I got frustrated with my .223 and I shouldn't have, I free floated my barrel and it didn't like it. Shot better without it. 1/2 inch groups. I did free float it today (different than the O ring I will post it later) and it shoots better :grin: . I am careful not to let my barrel heat up and I clean my rifle with butchs bore shine and I don't use a brush. I do use outers foam to and I would use as Quick recommended. I tried about 5 different loads with different OAL to get my handi .223 ultra to shoot good. If you don't reload try winchester white box ammo 45 gr. My rifle has about 200 rounds through it and it seems to be getting better and now its a joy to shoot. Did I expect a tack driver out of the box? No but I got one in handi rifle :-) . So hang in there and good luck!

Norse

MT4XFore · « **Reply #16 on:** June 13, 2005, 10:28:36 AM »

Irish,
Pay attention to what the good guys say about cleaning and using a good copper solvent. If you do have impatience problems, getting the copper out will be a test for it sometimes. Everyone has mentioned everything except parallex! With a Barska scope, I expect you have a lot, and that will never allow you to shoot good groups, unless you are lucky.

Good luck on your quest!

Jim

Longcruise · « **Reply #17 on:** June 13, 2005, 11:20:30 AM »

Also, lose the brass brush. Get a nylon brush. As long as you use a brass brush you won't know whether you are removing metal frm the bore or dissolving your brass brush! :shock:

Many of these handi guns never shoot any better than yours is doing so before you spend another 200 trying to make it shoot you might consider trading it off on a bolt gun.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #18 on:** June 13, 2005, 01:49:10 PM »

Quote from: Longcruise

Also, lose the brass brush. Get a nylon brush. As long as you use a brass brush you won't know whether you are removing metal frm the bore or dissolving your brass brush! :shock:

Many of these handi guns never shoot any better than yours is doing so before you spend another 200 trying to make it shoot you might consider trading it off on a bolt gun.

L'c,

How can you tell the man to get a bolt gun? I love bolt guns, so don't get me wrong.......the kind with Remington stamped on them! But these Handi's deserve a lot more credit for accuracy than they normally get. Meaning no disrespect to anyone, but I'd bet that most of the problems with accuracy from Handi's lie with us shooters. That includes myself when I'm having problems: whether from poor cleaning of the barrel like i used to be guilty of, or too much caffeine before shooting, or improperly resting/shooting the rifle, etc.etc.

Dollar for dollar the Handi' is one heck of a rifle. It doesn't get the 'press' that the others do because it isn't as glamorous. But it is every bit as accurate as 95% of us can hold, if not more so. I've seen it in the field......

Take care,

SS'

Longcruise · « **Reply #19 on:** June 14, 2005, 04:44:03 AM »

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But it is every bit as accurate as 95% of us can hold, if not more so. I've seen it in the field......

My experience is about 80% opposite! :-)

How do you compare accuracy "in the field"? That's gotta be the most difficult place to compare accuracy.

Ten good bolt guns unfired and fresh out of the box (I have never owned a rem) will outshoot ten handis unfired and fresh out of the box in a side by side accuracy comparrison no matter how many times you choose to repeat it and no matter how many types of targets or distances you choose to shoot at.

I will stand by that statement until proven wrong. If I had the financial wherewithal, I'd do the test and prove it to be correct!

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #20 on:** June 14, 2005, 05:57:31 AM »

The Handi's can sometimes be made to shoot ,but it takes lots of patience reloading for them.All of my bolt guns will outshoot my Ultra's with minor load development,and even my 2 Marlin 444's will out shoot my Ultra's with factory ammo. What stays in my hunting truck? the handi's easily win that one.My 223 Ultra finally got down to .560" but my Ruger 220 Swift will do .25" anyday and sometimes even better.Both of my Wby. Vangaurds will shoot less than 1" with any load and the 30 06 will do .310" with the good loads. The Handi's can be made to shoot fairly good,but when 2 good shooters of equall abilitys,with one shooting a good bolt,and the other a handi,the bolt will probably win. I'm not trying to bash the Handi,because its a very good gun.
If I go on a hunt of a lifetime or hunting dangerous game my more serious guns will be with me. Just my 2 cents worth, Digger

superhornet · « **Reply #21 on:** June 14, 2005, 07:53:47 AM »

It is nice out of the box to find good accurate factory ammo for your Handi, in any caliber. But, having said that, in most cases this is not the fact. I have seen the .223 Handi with the Bull barrel, Choate stock and lead weighted shoot five shot groups at 100 yards that you could cover with a nickel........these were with Handloads using the old Win. 55grain bullet.. The real optimum that can be achieved from your rifle is with Handloading. If handloading is not your thing, shoot that factory ammo and be satisfied with the 1.5 inch....Of course this is my humble opinion.

6-24x42 · « **Reply #22 on:** June 14, 2005, 10:18:23 AM »

I got back from the range the other day and I have good news to report. I found the bullet it likes and it is shooting groups just under an inch. And that was sprinting back and forth from the target. I was in a hurry. Storm coming in. I tried switching the material I used to space the barrel as well and I finally have the shooter I was looking for. the golf balls I shot were nowhere to be seen and the quarter had a huge chop out of it. Thanks for all the input. :toast:

safetysheriff · « **Reply #23 on:** June 14, 2005, 01:17:06 PM »

FWIW'

I did not lay down a "compare the bolt gun to a Handi'" challenge. I said that the Handi' is as accurate as 95% of us can hold. In the field: on neck shots at groundhogs at 185 yds (laser-ranged at a Later date) and so on, I've done it.

Just look at the results of some of the postal matches. The long-throating and the long-chambering that I see in my .223 bull barrel tells me that the Handi' needs a handload. I run my brass over 1.770" in length at times, therefore, having 'miked' the chamber before doing so. But the best results in a lot of bolt guns also come with handloads.

I am only saying that the man should not give up on the singleshot as of yet. I am only saying that the Handi/Ultra is a great framework for learning a lot about rifles, and for their continued use where it makes sense to do so. Sure, I wouldn't want to hunt Cape Buffalo with a singleshot......but I'll hunt Big black bear with one of appropriate caliber.

A very good, very generous friend of mine had a Springfield M-1A (semi-auto, admittedly) with a Match-grade chamber that never did outshoot my $169 Handi' in .223! I did finally talk him into buying a Remington Model 700 in .308 (tactical-type). It will shoot 'inside' of many Handi's I'm sure. But that $1200+ Springfield couldn't do it. Nor will a lot of over-the-counter bolt rifles.

Just my opinions,

SS'

lostsniper308 · « **Reply #24 on:** June 14, 2005, 01:23:29 PM »

my .308 Ultra hated the o-ring and it liked having the fore-end ahead of the stud slot sanded to free-float the barrel, try it if ya want, What is it again?? rifle that is. maybe its the mount/scope shifting ever so slightly to open them groups up, very unlikely but theres a 1st for everything right?

myarmor · « **Reply #25 on:** June 14, 2005, 02:54:39 PM »

Quote from: 6-24x42

I got back from the range the other day and I have good news to report. I found the bullet it likes and it is shooting groups just under an inch. And that was sprinting back and forth from the target. I was in a hurry. Storm coming in. I tried switching the material I used to space the barrel as well and I finally have the shooter I was looking for. the golf balls I shot were nowhere to be seen and the quarter had a huge chop out of it. Thanks for all the input. :toast:

Good to hear. I had a time with my 223 Ultra when I first got it, but now she can hit anything I aim it at. Sometimes it just takes a little patience. So what are the rounds that ended up giving you better performance?

Longcruise · « **Reply #26 on:** June 15, 2005, 08:20:20 AM »

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I did not lay down a "compare the bolt gun to a Handi'" challenge. I said that the Handi' is as accurate as 95% of us can hold. In the field:

I realize that you did not lay down a challenge. it was I who did that, but lets face it, it's a test that is unlikely to happen.

I take exception to your rationalization

Quote

I said that the Handi' is as accurate as 95% of us can hold

. Every shooter has a skill level that will vary from one position to the next and with how fast he just climbed the hill he is sitting on, etc. :grin:

I don't mix my skill and the shooting quality of the rifle when evaluating the accuracy of the rifle. A one hole rifle might be a 2 or 3 moa rifle in the field based on the skill of the user. OTOH, a 3 moa rifle in the hands of the same shooter is now a 5 or 6 moa gun in the field. So, to judge a rifles accuracy potential based on how well 95% of it's shooters can hold it seems like apples and oranges to me.

6-24x42 · « **Reply #27 on:** June 15, 2005, 10:07:52 AM »

I am shooting 52 grain hollow points from UltraMax. The best part is that they were only $14 for 50 and being that I make hardly any money, I was glad to see it likes the low price stuff. :grin:

TOMMYY01 · « **Reply #28 on:** June 15, 2005, 11:23:27 AM »

No disrespect intended, but I hear pulling through the trigger instead of squeezing thru. I had the same problem, with my .223, but I got something stationary to keep the rifle from moving and started squeezing the trigger. That cleared up my grouping problem. Plus I cleaned the heck out of it also between time s at the range.
tommy