Author Topic: What is a "SHTF situation"?  (Read 2050 times)

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Offline hardertr

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What is a "SHTF situation"?
« on: March 14, 2005, 04:57:28 AM »
I personally chuckle to myself when I see this.  I picture the Waco "stand-off" and a bunch of nut-jobs fighting against "the man".

OR, I see someone waking up, looking out his window and seeing hords of Chinese soldiers invading our neighborhood.

OR, is it that "bump in the night" that turns out to be a pair of guys breaking into your home....unaware of the fact that you DID wake up when they first came in?

The last seems to be the most fun situation to imagine.  No mercy, no laws...just blood and guts...because I am fortunate enough to be a Texan
The problem with troubleshooting is....sometimes it shoots back!

Offline Ramrod

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What is a "SHTF situation"?
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2005, 06:10:25 PM »
Obviously, the definition is going to be different for each individual. Personally, I don't think a "bump in the night that turns out to be a pair of guys breaking into your home" qualifies. That comes under "home defense." My dogs can probably handle that. I'll clean up whats left. A SHTF situation to me, is more like a social and governmental breakdown, like the L.A. riots, or some other mass lawlessness. An "every man for himself kind of scenario."
By the way, alot of of those "nut-jobs" Janet Reno slaughtered in Waco were women and children.
"Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine." Patti Smith

Offline williamlayton

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What is a "SHTF situation"?
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2005, 01:12:35 AM »
I think anarchy is a good term, and is something that will have need to be faced--at some point in time--and dealt with.
"Western" is a good term and such an attitude would be handy at the time we are speaking.
Folks, in such a time as we are speculating, old things will need to be put aside. new attitudes will have to supplant them. Until some simbulance of order, by someone or group, is established.
What do you do till then? How do you deal with it?
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline rockbilly

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What is a "SHTF situation"?
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2005, 10:57:33 AM »
:( ramrod.  Its sad that you, like many others can't see the forest for the trees.  Your comment "a lot of those "nut-jobs" Janet Reno slaughtered in Waco were women and children."  I'm sorry the women and children had to die in this manner, but don't blame Janet Reno for this disaster (I am not a Reno fan), but I think the blame should be placed where it belongs.

The whacky leader of this group, like the "poor boy" that lost his wife at Ruby Ridge are solely responsible for what happened.  These folks had broke the law, all they had to do to save those around them, was to walk out and surrender to law enforcement and have their day in court.  If a cop is attempting to pull you over for a traffic violation do you run, no! you pull over, accept the ticket and face the judge.  To me this is the same situation, all David and Randy had to do was walk out and face the music like a man rather than hide behind the women and children like a bunch of rats.

In most any other country of the world the stand-off would not have lasted more than a few days.  They were given a chance to be men but made another choice.

Offline bgjohn

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« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2005, 02:04:08 PM »
:( Thank you Bill Clinton. :roll:
JM
I know nothing. I am only a messenger.

Offline myronman3

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What is a "SHTF situation"?
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2005, 03:22:09 PM »
i aint familar with the term "shtf".  somebody p.m. me with full meaning of this acronym.   i heard of sofl, fubar,  and snafu; but shtf is new on me.  

  as far as waco and ruby ridge,  i dont care what koresh or weaver did.  it doesnt mean that that the government has the right to slaughter innocents.  

  give the government enough rope and they will hang you; and i am a pro government guy.  hand over your freedom at your own risk; but keep your hands off mine.

Offline bgjohn

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SHTF
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2005, 04:14:05 PM »
Stuff Hit The Fan. SHTF
JM
I know nothing. I am only a messenger.

Offline rockbilly

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What is a "SHTF situation"?
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2005, 05:24:12 PM »
:roll: bjjohn, I am not a Bill Clinton fan either, my point is, in a society such as ours, we can not allow those that break the law to barricade themselves and prevent arrest without penalties.  Take a minute and think of where we would be if we allowed every criminal to do likewise.  

We all know our form of government is not perfect, but it's still the best on this planet.  Thats because most of us believe in law and order.

Offline ShadowMover

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What is a "SHTF situation"?
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2005, 07:45:37 PM »
rockbilly, Have you read what happened there? Do you know the BATF went in shooting, when they could have had the head nut case Karesh come down to the Sheriff's office, like he had voluntarily done before?  Have you seen the video of the agents machine gunning, full auto, through wooden walls that their own men were behind? Have you seen the video of the one BATF agent shoot himself in the leg while climbing up a ladder onto a roof? Did you know they ran out of ammo and had to ask Karesh for a 'time out' to collect their dead and wounded. Have you read what the local sheriff thought about the operation?
Could it be the guy didn't worry so much about being arrested as being assassinated? You ask where we would be if every criminal were to do likewise? Who said the guy was a criminal? I thought the courts decided that, not tax collection agents in black.  I could ask you where we would be if every search warrant and every law enforcement action was carried out in such an arbitrary manner? The initial BATF agents who started the mess and the FBI goons who finished it should be ashamed of themselves.
I'll quit there.

Offline rockbilly

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What is a "SHTF situation"?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2005, 11:24:41 AM »
:roll: shadowmover.  We could set around the camp fire and chew the fat on this subject for days and still not see eye to eye on what happened in Waco.  I know the government made some mistakes, but based on tight ties to several LEOs that were directly involved with stand-off, I continue to maintain the position that all David Koresh had to do to end it was to walk out and face the music.  51 days provided ample time to do this.

I may have been a little hasty in labeling Koresh a "criminal", but based on current law, what do you call an individual that is head of a para-military organization in possessing of illegal weapons, when former members of the cult stated he was a practicing polygramists with the goal of having 60-80 wives.  (OK, nothing wrong with that if you can put up with 60-80 wives), and is also know, and accused by members, to frequently have sex with girls as young as 12 years old?


Everything Koresh did was pre-planed to make him look like the government was after him for no reason.  Rather than fear of being shot by the LEOs, his wish was suicide by cop.  

Talking to my nephew and several of his friends who were there, they admit there is a lot of truth in whats written/said, but also agree that the liberal media painted the picture they wanted the world to see.  

There is no clear answer to the hows and whys of this incident.  You would think that after 12 years someone would have specific answers, to date that has not happened.

Offline ShadowMover

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What is a "SHTF situation"?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2005, 04:10:31 PM »
rockbilly, you seem like a reasonable fellow, and you measured your reply in a like manner. I do doubt we could come to an agreement on this whole matter, which is OK. We both stated our opinions. I don't live to rectify historical wrongs. I would say the burden was on the government to act in the right way in these situations, even if Koresh acted like a jerk. I'll give you that Koresh could have come out, and he acted in a very poor manner. Did that give the government the right to act even worse?  51 days of waiting around the compound playing loud music and sounds of dying rabbits through amplifiers, then pumping the place full of CS gas with tanks, doesn't sound like a 'save the women and kids' operation; it sounds like "payback" to me.
As far as I know you are not a criminal even if you are the head of a 'paramilitary' organization, and all we have is the government's word there were illegal weapons found. The dead won't contradict them. The trial they had found all the survivors innocent of everything but some very minor charges, and the judge locked them up for the maximums. Many jurors were very upset by it.  The BATF is famous for making criminals out of people who weren't. That could be a whole line of discussion by itself.
Talking about polygamy is nothing but sensationalism. If Uncle Sam wanted to stop it they could start out west here and go to some of the 'plyg' towns around southern Utah and the north west corner of Arizona. It's been going on for a hundred years and the goverment just don't care. I worked with some guys who had more than one wife, some official, and some part time. As far as him having sex with a 12 year old, it's just more sensationalism. Don't get me wrong, I don't approve of it, but they sure didn't solve the problem did they? If they wanted to arrest people for having sex with 12 year old girls they could take some names outside some abortion clinics, or delivery rooms, in any major city, and they'd have enough names to keep them busy for their careers.  Funny how sex gets thrown into the mix to make a guy look guilty. We are always ready to believe the worst when it comes to sex. Well, old Uncle Sam's boys saved them from that pervert. Janet Reno to the rescue.
No doubt Karesh was a bad actor, but it's also just as clear the people on the outside of the compound didn't do the right thing either, and have been busy covering their tracks ever since.  We paid their wages, and that's why I'm upset.

Edit, added link,
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/talk/

Offline myronman3

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What is a "SHTF situation"?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2005, 04:57:03 PM »
what amazes me is no government agents have been prosecuted.   look at the abu grab (no big deal to me,  ww2 far worse was done daily) deal.  people locked up for putting a lease on someone.   stripping them naked and laughing.   :roll:   far worse was done to me for my military training.  

  but yet,  people were killed and no one has had to answer for it.  

if i make a mistake, and the punishment is either wear a dog leash naked; or have my family burned alive and me killed,  where is the leash?    

man, if this happened on bush's watch you would think the world was ending.  

Quote
Well, old Uncle Sam's boys saved them from that pervert. Janet Reno to the rescue.


not much else can be said about that.  kinda nails it.

Offline rockbilly

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What is a "SHTF situation"?
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2005, 05:01:46 PM »
:( Nuff said about Waco.  Right now I have to worry about a simular cult with-in 10 miles of my home.  Don't be surprised when you read about Eula, Tx someday.

Offline S.S.

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What is a "SHTF situation"?
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2005, 05:15:11 AM »
If you folks have not seen it,
you need to watch a documentary called
"WACO, RULES OF ENGAGEMENT". I
watched it and was pretty pissed off afterward.
As far as Mr. Weaver and his family at Ruby Ridge,
That was blatant, cold blooded, gung Ho... Murder
on the part of those officers.
They were ordered to "SHOOT ANYBODY WITH A GUN".
Well sorry folks, that is murder and those officers should
have been tried for it.
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline DEPUTY

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What is a "SHTF situation"?
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2005, 03:39:40 PM »
mod hat on cop hat off!

keep it real no talk of wacking an killing etc. or ill close this one fast!


thank you

Offline nomosendero

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What is a "SHTF situation"?
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2005, 08:41:15 PM »
I thought that Koresh made many trips to town & could have easily been
arrested before the bully tactics started.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline Lawdog

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What is a "SHTF situation"?
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2005, 12:59:17 PM »
It all boils down to this.  The United States is a nation of laws and if you don’t like a law then work to change it.  You don’t just go out and break a law because you don’t agree with it.  You do the law expect to see the local law enforcement personal coming to see you.  Lawdog
 :D
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Offline nomosendero

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What is a "SHTF situation"?
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2005, 03:43:31 PM »
Lawdog
I agree with what you say & we are warned in the scriptures to obey the
laws of the land. I believe & follow this.
But again I believe the man could have been arrested before the situation
escalated as he moved about the community freely. I bet you that I could
have figured out a way to get to him without burning a bunch of kids in the process!!!
We can use wisdom & logic to achieve our goals. Why have we not had a
bunch of these Koresh/Weaver type incidents since the Reno/Clintionan
Democrap Socialist Regime?
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline Lawdog

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What is a "SHTF situation"?
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2005, 12:29:26 PM »
Quote from: nomosendero
Lawdog
I agree with what you say & we are warned in the scriptures to obey the
laws of the land. I believe & follow this.
But again I believe the man could have been arrested before the situation
escalated as he moved about the community freely. I bet you that I could
have figured out a way to get to him without burning a bunch of kids in the process!!!
We can use wisdom & logic to achieve our goals. Why have we not had a
bunch of these Koresh/Weaver type incidents since the Reno/Clintionan
Democrap Socialist Regime?


The Mount Carmel center was rumored to be stockpiled inside was an arsenal of explosives and weapons, some of which reportedly had been illegally converted to rapid-fire automatic.  This put them under the ATF's jurisdiction.  A UPS driver had tipped off the government when a package bound for Mount Carmel had broken open to reveal casings for hand grenades.  Faced with the possibility of full auto weapons and explosives the agents were on the alert.  Those inside(the adults) were to be considered armed and dangerous.

The agents had hoped that this incident could be settled quickly.  At nearly 10 o'clock, as three teams formed to enter the building, an agent went to the compound's front door and knocked.  They'd been preparing for this for eight months, and each team had an assignment—protect the children, neutralize the military force, and seize the arms before they could be used.

David Koresh looked out from behind a steel door and learned that the agents had a search warrant.  Instead of obeying a lawful warrant and letting them in, he slammed the door and someone started shooting.  There were some reports that agents were shooting the dogs to get them out of the way(standard procedure by many departments) and that's what started the deadly crossfire between the two groups.  Several agents were hit right away, and multiple shots were fired at the hovering helicopters.  

The blame lays on David Koresh for all that happened.  David Koresh believed the government as the agent of Satan(taken directly from some of his writings).  David had predicted that they would be attacked by the “Babylonians”.  Could it have been handled differently?  Yes.  Would it have ended up differently if David Koresh had obeyed the lawful order/warrant and surrendered to the ATF agents?  Most assuredly YES.  Yes the events at Waco were a shame but would have never happened if David hadn’t defied the law.  For the children sake I am truly sorry but the adults knew what they were doing, for them I have no sympathies.  Lawdog
 :money:
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Offline nomosendero

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What is a "SHTF situation"?
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2005, 02:24:30 PM »
Like you said, it could have been handled differently.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline ShadowMover

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What is a "SHTF situation"?
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2005, 05:17:38 PM »
Let's go line by line with Lawdog's scenario:

"The Mount Carmel center was rumored to be stockpiled inside was an arsenal of explosives and weapons, some of which reportedly had been illegally converted to rapid-fire automatic."

So a rumor is enough to get you raided now?  Did the rumor convince a judge to sign a warrant?  Who 'reported' there were illegal full auto weapons?  We've had rumors on this board that the twin towers were nuked, and reports of big foot. Did they have a warrant when they went in? I heard they didn't

"This put them under the ATF's jurisdiction."
We know what a level headed , well respected group of tax collectors they are.


"A UPS driver had tipped off the government when a package bound for Mount Carmel had broken open to reveal casings for hand grenades."

UPS drivers, tipping off the government about grenade casings?  Were the casings the same ones you can buy at the gun shows for $5. The ones with the big hole in the bottom where a rubber plug goes?  Do UPS drivers qualify as ammo experts?

"Faced with the possibility of full auto weapons and explosives the agents were on the alert."

Thank goodness they were alert! No telling how many people could have been hurt otherwise. I guess a few of them must have dozed off during the briefing, when they told them to keep their fingers off the triggers, until ready to fire. I saw the video of one BATF ninja shooting himself in the leg while climbing a ladder.  I guess the report of practice grenade casings has morphed into explosives now?
 
"Those inside(the adults) were to be considered armed and dangerous."

Obviously. No sense in trying to talk to them, or have Karesh come into town. Just shoot to kill (the adults).

"The agents had hoped that this incident could be settled quickly."

That would explain why they didn't bring extra ammo.

"At nearly 10 o'clock, as three teams formed to enter the building, an agent went to the compound's front door and knocked.  They'd been preparing for this for eight months, and each team had an assignment—protect the children, neutralize the military force, and seize the arms before they could be used."

They planned this fiasco for 8 months? They executed the search while the head suspect is inside and has access to all his reported weapons? Not real clear thinkers.  

"David Koresh looked out from behind a steel door and learned that the agents had a search warrant.  Instead of obeying a lawful warrant and letting them in, he slammed the door and someone started shooting."

I guess since they killed everyone who might argue with them, we'll only hear the BATF side of that moment.  The steel front door, which might reveal which way the bullets were going, got lost somehow. Funny how that happened.

"There were some reports that agents were shooting the dogs to get them out of the way(standard procedure by many departments) and that's what started the deadly crossfire between the two groups.  Several agents were hit right away, and multiple shots were fired at the hovering helicopters."  
That's something new. I didn't know the agents were shooting dogs at the compound. I guess if it's 'standard procedure', it must be OK.  I can't understand why anyone would get confused over someone at your front door shooting at your dogs. :roll:  

"The blame lays on David Koresh for all that happened.  David Koresh believed the government as the agent of Satan(taken directly from some of his writings).  David had predicted that they would be attacked by the “Babylonians”.  Could it have been handled differently?  Yes.  Would it have ended up differently if David Koresh had obeyed the lawful order/warrant and surrendered to the ATF agents?  Most assuredly YES.  Yes the events at Waco were a shame but would have never happened if David hadn’t defied the law."

It takes a real sure opinion for someone to say "The blame lays on David Koresh for all that happened". From what I've seen and read there seems to be plenty of blame all around.  I don't doubt Karesh was a nut, and I'm not trying to defend him. I'm trying to point out to you and the other forum readers the really foolish things done under the name of the law.  There were plenty of opportunities for this to end in a different manner, but they were all passed up. Your unbending defense of what law enforcement did, when they had plenty of time to avoid it, doesn't sit well with me.

"For the children sake I am truly sorry but the adults knew what they were doing, for them I have no sympathies."

I think 'no sympathies' about sums it up. I found your post very disturbing.

Offline myronman3

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What is a "SHTF situation"?
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2005, 02:13:16 AM »
i aint no fan of koresh.  

but i aint a fan of government agents running unchecked.   the constitution talks about "we the people" and basically is a tool that limits government power.   there is no question the law enforment agents could have grabbed koresh while he was outside the compound.   but that wouldnt be ramming government power down his throat.   someone knocks on my door (warrent or not) and i hear gunfire, you can bet it is on.  

  the 'YOU WILL RESPECT MY AUTHORITIIIIE' attitude is obvious.   the law is needed, yes.  90% of law enforcement  do an outstanding job.   as with everygroup, there are bad apples.    when things like this happen, it must be picked apart to see how things can be handled better; and to see if everyone involved acted lawfully.  anyone that sides up 100% with either side is a wacko.    

obviously both sides could have made better decisions.   maybe koresh was a wacked out freak.   that doesnt absolve law officals from all blame.

some want to play rambo, and think their badge makes them so.  being elite doesnt mean everybody dies;  our military doesnt even behaive this way.  

 at the end of it all, the founders framed things so government still answers to the people.   why do you think that is?  they feared a government that was unchecked.   while it is o.k. to be supportive of law enforcement; to blindly accept their actions without question is plain old foolish.

Offline DEPUTY

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What is a "SHTF situation"?
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2005, 04:37:41 AM »
This is starting to go down hill fast

Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2005, 11:09:50 AM »
ShadowMover,

Quote
So a rumor is enough to get you raided now? Did the rumor convince a judge to sign a warrant? Who 'reported' there were illegal full auto weapons?


The FBI had gotten undercover agents into the compound.  After the fire illegal full auto weapons were recovered.

From the reports/videos I have seen the people inside the compound/center open fired first.  WHY?  Why didn’t Koresh just step outside and surrender?  The adults inside knew they were breaking the law by defying a legal warrant.  Did they expect the agents to just go away?  If you break a law and officers surround your house do you really think they are going away just because you don’t want to come out?  Do you believe you have the legal right to defy a legal warrant/court order?  Lawdog
 :D
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Offline DEPUTY

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What is a "SHTF situation"?
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2005, 11:17:29 AM »
Ok its done boys!