Loads for .223 Handi (Revised Jun 20)

[McLernon]

Please post your favorite loads for .223. Any and all data posted will be used subject to the usual safety considerations.

 I'm thinking of about 26 gr. of W748, 40 gr. Nosler Bal tips, Winchester brass and primer. This I believe closely approximates what the White Box ammo is. Any comments will be appreciated.

New Question:

If Winchester uses W748 in their White Box 45 gr's how the heck do they get 3600 fps with 25.6 gr. of powder (because that's all that's in them)? My guess is they're not using W748. So what do you think they're using?

[DanielWGriggs]

That is real close to the load I use for a 50 gr nosler. I load a little hotter for the 40 gr CT's that I like. I won't give exact loads because I know that you will work up your own for your rifle and mine may not be safe in your rifle.

[quickdtoo]

Here are a couple previous threads on 223 loads... :wink:

Tim

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=62755&highlight=223+loads

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=60150&highlight=223+loads

[Norseman112]

McLernon

I will pm you my load data.


Norse

[safetysheriff]

I work up loads, but presently use the following:

Rem/Peters Nickel-plated brass; Rem' 7 1/2 BR primers; 55 gr' Hornady spire points; 27.1 gr's of WC-846 (in the bulk/lots that I presently have).   As I change lots of the various components I work up a load again.

No problems with extraction in my heavy-barrel'd .223 Handi' as long as I keep the brass properly sized, and the bullet seated to a proper depth.  

Work up your loads in keeping with good, safe practices.    But remember, the 'white box' Winchesters are loaded with 'liability' in mind, I believe.    They would seem to be able to take more propellant from what I've seen of their 55 gr' fmj's.  

Take care,

SS'

[safetysheriff]

New Question:

If Winchester uses W748 in their White Box 45 gr's how the heck do they get 3600 fps with 25.6 gr. of powder (because that's all that's in them)? My guess is they're not using W748. So what do you think they're using?

They 'chrono' their loads in so-called pressure barrels.   Those barrels may be lapped or may be plenty smoothed out by the shooting that is done through them.    They may, 'though I don't know, also use a slower twist in their pressure barrels when shooting lighter bullets.   I can't say that's true, but it might be a reason for the higher velocities(less friction with slower twists).   I think they just 'chrono' their loads with longer barrels (24 or 26" lengths) and with smoother rifling than we might be using.    Their chambers may also be tighter, and their throating may be somewhat longer to allow for more velocity out of the firearm, such as is used by Weatherby -- some say.    

No big deal......because you and I need to work up our loads for our individual rifles anyway.    And......many times projectiles shoot flatter than what their ballistic co-efficients would indicate.    You don't read that too much, but it's true with a good number of bullets from what I've studied.

Don't get overly wrapped up in an extra 75 to 100 fps' in a cartridge like the .223.......because it probably won't matter as much in practical shooting terms as you might think. (in a slower cartridge I'd like the extra velocity because it is a more significant factor at that point to get 75 to 100 fps velocity.    ...one of the reasons some people like to shoot hardcast bullets in their firearms.)    

Learn proper handloading and shooting techniques, learn proper game-stalking and driving techniques, and all good things will come to you!

Take care,

SS'

[McLernon]

My reason for wanting to know what powder Winchester is using is because the White Box ammo is the only thing right now that shoots consistently in my Handi. I'm not concerned at all about maxing out the muzzle velocity.

[De41mag]

McLernon;

I don't mean to sound smart but winchester won't tell you and I'm sure no one else knows what powder they use in the white box stuff.
That's one of the MAIN things they say in loading manuals. Don't second guess anything. Very dangerous.
Good shooting.  :wink:

Dennis  

[Donaldo]

I too have wondered about the powder in the White box stuff for the 223.  Looks a lot like W748 but who knows?  I have chronographed several of the WW 45JHP stuff out of my 223 Handi and my 223 Savage bolt rifle.  My chrono says 3450 to 3490.  None have ever gone over 3500.  Both rifles have 24" barrels.  Advertising hipe is what it is.  However.....the WW white box 22-250 stuff they advertise at 4,000 is that.  Out of my 24" Shilen barreled Mauser it chrono's 4,050+.  So who knows?

[McLernon]

Your chrono data makes more sense when compared to book velocities for W748. That is, 360ofps is way to high. So White Box velocities are close to book then and the stuff physically looks like W748, maybe it's W748.

It was the high advertised velocity that was confusing the picture.  At any rate I've loaded some rounds with W748 with 40gr, Nosler bal. tips and I'm going to the range tomorrow. If my reloads in W748 group as well as White Box and POI is consistent, then I've got what I need(for the time being). Thanks for your detailed response.

McL

[Longcruise]

My chrono gave the win white box a hair under 3300 out of my Handi.  Dissecting a round showed up a spehrical powder that could easily be 748 or 335 or any other bulk powder that they have on hand.  Could be one of their mil spec powders that never see a cannister.  Certainly that nice little 45 gr bullet can't be bought!

[McLernon]

I just got back from the range and can now confirm based on POI shift downward that the powder in White Box .223 X 45 gr. cannot be W748. It must be a faster powder. It must be quite a bit faster.

Looks likely that we will never know. I'm almost about to give up, for the time being, on reloading for my Handi and just use White Box.
Thanks for the info.

McL

[quickdtoo]

I'm almost about to give up, for the time being, on reloading for my Handi and just use White Box.
Thanks for the info.

McL

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger, you're not the first to come to that conclusion!!! :wink:

Tim

[Longcruise]

cannot be W748. It must be a faster powder. It must be quite a bit faster.

That's what I concluded.  weight of the chargewas 25.9 grains.  That's pretty light for 748 under a 45 gr bullet and for sure would not get it up to 3300 fps not to mention 3600!  It's probably a bulk powder slower than 335 even.

Hmmm...  Could it be comaprable to Hodgdons Benchmark? :shock:

HHere's what I came up with when I dissected a wwb round last year.

Here is a synopsis of the disecction of the win varmint pak 223 45 JHP ammo


First, the coal of the loaded rounds is 2.204.

The length of the 45 grain jhp is .624.  It is a flat based bullet, no boattail.  Actual weight of the bullet was 45.5 grains.
Some other bullets compared in size;  Speer 52 gr HP (#1035) .705 long.  Rem 50 gr HP .638 long.  Horn 55g JSP .708 long.

The case (unfired, bullet pulled) measures 1.755

The bullet has no crimp cannelure, but it is defintely crimped with a smooth almost invisible crimp.  It took three hard raps with a quinetics puller to free the bullet.

Given the above measurements, the bullet is seated .175 deep in the case mouth.

The powder was a typical win ball powder and weighed 25.9 grains.  This could be 748 or maybe a similar bulk powder manufactured by/for winchester.  I'm quite certain that winchester manufactures Hodgdons H335 and BLC-2.  The winchester manual does not list a 45 grain bullet in .224.  Neither could I find one listed for sale on either midway or graf's web sites.  There was a Win 46 grain Hornet bullet listed on Midway's site.

I was a little surprised to find a ball powder charge under such a light bullet in .223.  Especially one that burns slow enough to call for nearly 26 grains of powder.  For my own reloading regimen, I had picked H322 as my powder of choice to try under 40 to 45 grain bullets, but that's just my own preference.

[McLernon]

Hello Longcruise

I didn't know that Winchester made H335. Very interesting no? I'm sure they are not using Benchmark as I have it and I checked it out.

My Hornady manuel lists H335 with a 45 gr SP at 3500fps with the max charge of 27.1 gr. of H335.(very close to BL-C2) Getting closer.

I don't have H335/BL-C2 but maybe some enterprising/willing/able individual who has some could chrono it with some 45gr. SP's and report.

Also the presence of a crimp could be significant as I have heard that crimping helps in getting good internal ballistics. Just a Thought.

Thanks for your detailed response.

McL

[Longcruise]

Thanks for your detailed response

Your welcome.  No big thing, just a copy and paste from the write up I did last year.

I don't mess much with 223 load development work any more but in the past have experimented to the tune of over 2500 rounds of handloads.

Of course they were for a specific rifle, but some general observations (and your results may differ) were that 335 and BLC-2 worked best near max pressures and with bullets of 50 gr or more.  I got better results with the lighter bullets with H322 and 4895.

If I could have only one powder for the 223 it would be 4895.  Works well across all bullet weights  and delivers consistent results and good accuracy when the right combo is found.

Actually, If I was told that from here on out I could have only one powder for all my reloading (223, 270 Win, 7-08, 30/06, 7.62X54R, 7.5X55 Swiss, 303 Brit, 308 Win and 45-70) it would be H4895.  The only caliber that it is not very well suited to is the 270 Win and it will work at least passably in it :grin: