Author Topic: wssm cartriges (Read 981 times)

TrapperZach · « **on:** June 19, 2005, 05:08:52 AM »

hey all havint been in ina while. i was wonderin if the wssm cartriges can be done in handis i was amaze at the velocites of it they had an article in the new predator extreme. is it to large or will it work?

poncaguy · « **Reply #1 on:** June 19, 2005, 05:46:56 AM »

I hope they'll bring our the barrels for the WSM and WSSM's in Handi's. I have a 270WSM in a Winchester Super Shadow and I really like the round.....................

Wlscott · « **Reply #2 on:** June 19, 2005, 06:04:05 AM »

I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. They stated that they wouldn't bring out the 300WSM in a handi/ultra for two reasons:

1. They would have to take too much metal out of the chamber area of the barrel.

2. The pressures of these rounds run from 53,000 psi to 63,800 psi. Too high.

Even the 223WSSM matches the pressures of the 300WSM, so I doubt that they are planning on chambering these rifles in these calibers.

If it makes you feel any better......TC won't chamber their Encore's for the short mags either.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** June 19, 2005, 06:42:50 AM »

It actually isn't just a matter of pressure as some common standard calibers excede the pressures of the short mags as can be seen in the SAAMI chart...case head thrust being the predominate issue.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

From everything I've read on the developement of the short mags, the reason they exist is so they can be chambered in short actions which are stiffer and more accurate than long actions, an issue that is a moot point in a Handi.

Tim

Coastwatcher · « **Reply #4 on:** June 19, 2005, 06:47:37 AM »

Another issue is throat erosion. More flame in a shorter distance means higher temperature and erosion. I know a couple of manufacturers had problems with the first .243 wsm rifles they built because of this. I don't know what the fix was, but I'm sure steel quality came into it. H&R may realize that making rifles in those calibres at a reasonable cost is difficult.

Wlscott · « **Reply #5 on:** June 19, 2005, 07:23:18 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo

It actually isn't just a matter of pressure as some common standard calibers excede the pressures of the short mags as can be seen in the SAAMI chart...case head thrust being the predominate issue.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

From everything I've read on the developement of the short mags, the reason they exist is so they can be chambered in short actions which are stiffer and more accurate than long actions, an issue that is a moot point in a Handi.

Tim

I can dig what you're saying, but isn't case head thrust dependant on pressure? The more pressure you have, the higher the case head thrust is on the bolt face/standing breech. I understand also that the shape of hte case will have a direct bearing on how much case thrust a particular cartridge will exibit, but pressure still has to have something relationship with it.

I also know that people who have contacted both TC and H&R have been told that the primary reason they won't chamber for these cartridges is because of the amount of metal that they will have to take out in order to chamber it. Maybe this is just they're "easy" answer to get everyone to stop asking for the dang things, but that's what they have said.

I do agree with you 100% in that the short mags were developed to get magnum power in a short action rifle, and that there would be very little gain in chambering them in a single shot.

JPH45 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 19, 2005, 08:14:54 AM »

TC won't even chamber the things in the Encore, in which they do chamber magnums based on the H&H case. Probably does have something to do with material removed from the barrel.

Most hunter/shooter types I have met are completely unable to use the velocity/trajectory potentials of the 270/308/30-06. I abolutely fail to understand anything the so called short magnums do for someone who hardly ever shoots past 200 yards. Will someone please explain the point?

And since I'm on this soapbox, where was any demand for such cartridges? I'm convinced these things are an abomination foisted on the public by Remchester as an effort to sell more rifles. However, get any of the makers to actually build something that people want.........

The short and ultra magnums are in my my humble opinion (seasoned by 30 years of shooting and successful hunting experience) cartridges for the person who has honed and maintains their skills well above average profeciency. Thinking of the average hunter who has difficulty shooting their 300 Win Mag well enough to get it properly sighted in, the overall effect the new generations of magnums will have on the shooting sports strikes me as dubious at best.

But what do I know, I still consider the 30-06 to be a magnum when compared to the available 30 calibers of it's day, and I still think it plenty capable of doing anything any reasonable person would ask of it. I've noticed that peole didn't come in droves to trade their 06's in for a sample of the new kid on the block.

Perhaps the great problem is that we are dealing with a mature technology. Without some advance in enterior ballistics we simple cannot drive bullets significantly faster than we are driving them now. In the end of things, just how many variations on an action design can be done before all possible variations have been produced? At that point, only the most effienct designs , both from a manufactuering and mechanical standpoint will survive.....How do you improve on the Ruger 77, the Winchester M70 or the Remington 700?

Ultimately we are left with rehashing the territory that has already been gone over. Lazeroni is making a line of cartridges that are more reminicient of Charles Newtons work than that of the firm Holland & Holland, yet Newton did his work between about 1910 and 1925.

What the makers ahve failed to do is to improve the manufacturability (is that a word) of designs that have served them for over 100 years and simulataniously market them successfully into the niches where demand for such products is high.

When was the last time Winchester introduced a new leveraction? The AE 94?

Interestingly, none of the three cartridges introduced with it; the 307, 356 and 375 Winchester are viable today. Yes, they have reintroduced the 25-35 and the 38-55, kudos. Perhaps they will continue to offer reintroductions of such fine cartridges.

But somehow, I suspect that their bread and butter continuesto be plain jane versions of the M70 in such mundane offerings as the 270, 308 and 30-06.

It would be interesting to know which chambering tops the NEF Handirifle sales list. If I had to judge by this boards topics, I would bet on it being either the 223 or the 45-70.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #7 on:** June 19, 2005, 08:46:23 AM »

www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/ tells how the "a-bolt composite stalkers", and some other a-bolts, in .223 and .243 WSSM's are given chrome-lined barrels. the 'rumor' was true that those cartridges were burning out barrels. and those rifles were adapted - in some measure - to the larger case heads, etc.

any more need be said? i suppose part of the reason we'll not see these cartridges in Handi's is also the niche-market mentality that NEF' has to deal with. in other words, how many people will pay for a chrome-lined bore in a single-shot rifle?

i think, with all due respect, that the .270 Win' already chambered in the Handi', is capable of 95% of the hunting escapades that 'wssm' buyers are really capable of. many of those people don't realize/utilize anywhere near the full capabilities of those rifles.

just my two cents,

SS'

Mitch in MI · « **Reply #8 on:** June 19, 2005, 09:05:13 AM »

One of our infrequent posters had a handi rechambered to 300WSM, and it did not huld up under the pressure of factory ammo. All of the WSM and WSSM cartridges have the same case head area and pressure, so if it won't work with one, it won't work with the others.

poncaguy · « **Reply #9 on:** June 19, 2005, 09:46:19 AM »

I have never been a 30 caliber fan, always been a 270 guy for my deer hunting in Kansas-Oklahoma area. Most of my shooting is over 200 yards, last year it was a 350 yard shot. I prefer the 270 WSM because it's a shorter and lighter rifle in a bolt action. It's not that much flatter or faster than a regular 270. Reason I love my Handi's and Thompson Encore is because of the short overall length. A 270 or 280 Handi is probably all I would really need for most of my shooting.But heck, what fun is just one gun :?

Sourdough · « **Reply #10 on:** June 19, 2005, 11:17:31 AM »

The short maginums were brought out to be able to use in the short actions so they could make a smaller shorter gun for mountain type hunting. They wanted a shorter gun yet be able to retain the performance of the original longer cartridge. The short catrtidges won't do anything the longer parent cartridge won't do. Therefore putting it in a single shot is a mute point.

I own two guns that shoot the .350 Remington Mag cartridge, the original short mags. They knock the crap out of you with recoil, yet are balistically identical with my two .35 Whelens. They all shoot the same bullets, yet the Whelens don't have the recoil of the .350s. Yes the Whelens are the same type and weight of the .350s.

I helped a young man sight in a new 300WSSM. Recoil was horrindous, and I'm used to shooting .338s. Yet that 300 WSSM won't do anything the 300 Win Mag won't do. So why habve something so abusive to the shooter?

DanielWGriggs · « **Reply #11 on:** June 19, 2005, 12:05:44 PM »

So We have on one side the Fella's That feel 3006,12ga,.22, and the .45auto is all that is needed.

On the other hand The watsammahutits super mag,10ga4.5"mag,the .10cal hmmr,and the 50beowolf super mag for a hand gun.

Ain't life grand we got choices.... :-D

wudjalike2no · « **Reply #12 on:** June 19, 2005, 12:14:20 PM »

Quote from: Sourdough

So why habve something so abusive to the shooter?

they are abusive because they are lighter. lighter makes them easier to carry. the abuse you may take from the lighter gun in one shot is probably gonna make up for the abuse of carrying a heavy gun

Coastwatcher · « **Reply #13 on:** June 19, 2005, 12:48:25 PM »

That is right to the point in selecting a rifle. If you carry it a lot and shoot it a little, buy a light one. If you shoot it a lot and carry it a little, buy a heavy one.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** June 19, 2005, 01:17:03 PM »

Or better yet, buy a light one and if it kicks ya too much, even after adding a "good" recoil pad, add some weight or a mercury recoil reducer to the stock, easily done in a Handi!!!

Tim

Sourdough · « **Reply #15 on:** June 19, 2005, 05:48:12 PM »

wudjalike2no: Yes, in a bolt gun or a semiauto there is a weight advantage. But we are talking singleshots here. Nothing gained by chambering a single shot for these hard kicking short rounds. No weight savings. So why do it? The old tryed and true cartridges can be found almost everywhere. The new short mags are hard to find, expecially in the rural areas.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #16 on:** June 20, 2005, 11:30:09 AM »

I know that I like and 'preach' the use of the .270 Win' in many situations. But if you want a single shot that will more closely approximate one of the WSM's or WSSM's, then get the 26"-barreled .280 Rem' in Handi' or Ultra (?) and see how little - if any - you give up to the new cartridges. If your .280 Rem' Handi' will shoot well with the 139 gr' Hornady spire point boat tail I'd expect you to kill deer reliably at 400 yds if you can hit them, and most elk at 300, to maybe 350, yds with proper bullet placement. This of course includes the 'proviso' that you don't buy a rifle with a 'slow' barrel......that you get a 'normal' barrel producing good velocities.

The bullet is the part of the equation that ultimately 'closes the deal' with the game we hunt. Given enough terminal velocity the correct bullet will put down the game we've chosen. The .280 Rem' in a long-barreled rifle should get it done....

Today's Handi' or Ultra -- in the present calibers -- is all that most of us will ever need!

My opinion of how versatile these rifles really are,

SS'

TrapperZach · « **Reply #17 on:** June 22, 2005, 07:58:57 AM »

o well itwould be cool thoe

Sourdough · « **Reply #18 on:** June 22, 2005, 08:41:08 AM »

Zack:
Yes it would be cool, but you have to look at the economics of retooling for the production of a cartridge. Then will it sell? Yes a few would buy it, but most would not. If the market is not there, it's not a good idea to manufactor it.
Then you have to look at the product. In this case the WSSMs were designed for use in bolt action guns. Their purpose is to shorten the action, making the gun lighter, yet retain the ballistics to reach out at longer ranges. With a single shot rifle you don't shorten the action, or gain any advantage by using the shorter cartridge. Since their is no advantage, people would not buy it. Then the manufactor is stuck with a lot of items that won't sell. This would cause him to loose money, and possiably go out of business.
Also those new cartridges are hard to find. Oh, you may find them at almost every store in the city. But when you get out into the rural areas you won't find them until they are really popular. Right now they are not. In areas like where I live I doubt that you will ever see them in the trading post, or stores out in the villages. I own two .350 Rem Mags, good cartridge for big game. But I can not find cartridges outside of Anchorage or Fairbanks for them. If I go on a hunting trip and for some reason loose my ammo, I'm out of luck. Can't find them in the rural stores. Where if I take a .338 Win Mag or a 30-06, no problem. Every store carries them.
Personnally: I think the WSSMs are a passing fad that will fade away in a few years. I don't think they will last. There has been many good cartridges come and go on the shooting scene in the last 100 years. Some deserved to die a fast death, yet others were good rounds, they just did not become popular. The shooting public tends to always slide back to the old tried and true cartridges. Look at the 30-30, and 45-70. Old obsolete black powder cartridges according to the gun writers. Yet there is more boxes of 30-30s sold in this country every year than any other round. And the 45-70 has had many writers sound the death bells for it, but it keeps making a comeback. Any gun manufactor wants to sell guns, make them in those two cartridges and they will sell every one the make.
Like I said it is a matter of economics, I don't think you will see many WSSMs in single shots. And I seriouslly doubt seeing them in leverguns, pumps, or semi-autos. Eventhough the advantages of the short cartridge would assist in making them lighter, the weight savings would be negliable, on these types of guns.

Wlscott · « **Reply #19 on:** June 22, 2005, 08:41:53 AM »

Quote from: TrapperZach

o well itwould be cool thoe

That right there sums up exactly why we have so many new cartriges. And that's fine. I have a 300WSM in a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight and I love it.

Most guys keep talking about how the new short mags aren't necessary, and we could get by with the old 30-06 forever and never need another rifle. But what fun would that be. If we lived by that rule, we'd still be using rotary dial telephones and driving Model T Fords.

Now don't get me wrong. I will never bash anyone for their choice of using a 30-06 or a 270 Win for hunting, they're fine cartriges and do their intended job perfectly. You'll never hear me making fun of anyone for using these old war horses.

But I enjoy shooting my new 300WSM. It's short, light and handy. Not to mention accurate. It's a heck of an elk rifle. And that's what matters. As long as it does it's job, I'll keep shooting it.

Varminter · « **Reply #20 on:** June 22, 2005, 09:04:39 AM »

I have to admit when the WSM & WSSM came out i was really impressed. I wanted a 270 WSM so bad but then i start to read and actually look at the ballistics and it could really do nothing that my 270 win. couldn't. and since then they haven't really done anything for me. As for the new 325 WSM i was really taken back by that catridge. I will probably pick one of those up at the next gun show.

I fully agree with what Sourdough has said. He really "hit the nail on the head". If these were chambered in a handi i would probably buy one but it would be just for the fact that i had a WSM in a HANDI. I shoot it alittle then probably sell it. NEF would probably suffer a big loss if they went through the process of making these barrels.

Norseman112 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 22, 2005, 11:15:07 AM »

Last year my soon to be step son wanted a .270 and it was his money we were going to spend so I said ok we will go look at some. He didn't want a single shot (I just got into handi rifles a few months ago). Anyway we got a super shadow .270 .......so I thought. I got home and it was a .270 wsm. I thought what the heck! I called the dealer and he said sorry bring it back and we will order the .270, but told me the wsm is a little better deal and I said I will let him know in the morning. I already bought brass but didn't buy dies for it yet. I did some reading and researching and we decided to keep the .270WSM. I will not bash the .270 win never its a winner in my book. I don't think the .270 WSM is a fad and will die out, but I could be wrong. There is alot of good reports on it. I would not suggest that H&R start making them though. Here is an interesting read.
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/multi_092104/

wudjalike2no · « **Reply #22 on:** June 22, 2005, 01:43:34 PM »

also, you dont have to deal with the issues that are presented by the belted magnum cartridge

Sourdough · « **Reply #23 on:** June 23, 2005, 05:27:05 AM »

wudjalike2no: You just brought up an interesting point. I have a TCR, that is a single shot rifle made by Thompson Center. I have two barrels for belted magnums, 7MM Rem Mag and .338 Win Mag. Sometimes these belted cartridges are really frustrating to load into the gun. The belt has to be pushed over the extractor, but care must be taken not to push the case too far, or extraction groove slips past the extractor then the gun will not close till the case has been removed and reinserted properly. This removal is not easy, and usually requires the removal of the barrel. Then a rod has to be used to push the case out of the chamber. This only happens with the belted magnums. Standard cases will not go past the extractor. I can forsee the same problem with Handi's if you try loading a Belted Magnum case with the same type extractor or ejector.