Author Topic: A truly liberal view of abortion and gay marriage  (Read 1694 times)

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Offline mjbgalt

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A truly liberal view of abortion and gay ma
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2005, 11:36:11 AM »
look our "poverty" level is a misnomer.

most of those people have a place to live, drive their own car, and have more than one tv.

sorry, i cant spare a tear right now.

i work with the general public. can you name another country where the "poor" are as fat as ours? where they can afford to eat fast food and take time off work for vacation?

contrast that with what we found in Iraq...

-Matt
I have it on good authority that the telepromter is writing a stern letter.

Offline Leverdude

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« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2005, 11:50:56 AM »
While I'm not sure where that was supposed to go I'll wholeheartedly agree we're spending way too much money fighting for the Iraqis.

That money could sure be put to good use here. Makes one wonder why theres never a whopper of a surplus when we're not fighting for some lost cause on the other side of the world.

Far as giving the rich the tax breaks, what do you expect? We only put rich guys in the whitehouse.
Congress oughtta pass a law that the rich cant run.  :)
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Offline 379 Peterbilt

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« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2005, 01:16:27 PM »
Quote from: Leverdude
Far as giving the rich the tax breaks, what do you expect? We only put rich guys in the whitehouse.
Congress oughtta pass a law that the rich cant run.  :)


Makes me wonder to myself. I often hear the democrats whine about the "rich".

Then I remember that every single democrat in the house/ or senate is 100 times richer than folks like me. what in the world?

Offline fe352v8

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« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2005, 02:26:23 PM »
I have no problem with those with wealth, only those that seek to increase it or maintain it at the expense of the people, which they claim to serve.  

As there had never been a sustained decline in abortion from 1972 until 1990, it would appear that with prosperity being more evenly distributed, than now, that there is possible a connection between equity and abortion.  The disregard for equitable tax treatment, as policy may be counter-productive to curtailing abortion, and thus those who simultaneously speak out against abortion, yet support a widening of the gap between rich and poor through tax policy are possibly disingenuous regarding their opposition on abortion.

I think there has been enough shedding of crocodile tears; I suppose we can refer to those in shelters as living in a hostelry, and their picking through dumpsters as urban archeology while on their vacation.

Under federal guidelines a family of four would have no more than $18400 in income to begin qualifying for assistance.  If they can find housing for $500 per month, that leaves $12,400.  If they want utilities at say $100 per month that leaves $11,200.  If they eat and food costs $200 per month that leaves $8800.  Health insurance might be nice, and they found a bargain at  $300 per month, that leaves $5200, or do they have to pay for daycare?  Cloths would be good; being they are thrifty they clothed four people for only a $1000 that leaves $4200.  Lets not forget that car it runs around $200 a month including taxes and insurance that leaves $1800.  Being the car is economical and gets 25 MPG and they only drive 15000 miles a year and pay $2 per gallon it only costs $600 for gas that leaves $1200.  Being they are frugal they skipped cable but have a phone at $30 per month that leaves $860 left over for the year.  Lets just skip dentists, or our medical co-pays, toys, books or back to school.  Well with that left over $860, I suppose they could go on that big vacation, or put it in their IRA, or buy furniture even.  So how can one be poor in America, by working 40 hours per week 52 weeks a year, or 2080 hours, at $8.50 per hour to support a family of four.

Your right it is a misnomer, sort of like what we found in Iraq, a $300,000,000,000 hole with no weapons of mass destruction, in it.  Is it moral to spend $12,000 per Iraqi when we cut services to Americans?  I suppose it would be wasteful to raise Americans standards of living when we can spend it overseas.  After all how could Halliburton and Kellogg Root and Brown over bill if we spent it here.  The only progressive thing done so far is a prescription drug benefit under medi-care, but then to make sure that the rich got theirs, medi-care is barred from negotiating drug discounts.  So once again, you lucky guy, you can pay the premium.  After all the party needed that check from Lilly.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon
life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

Offline Leverdude

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« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2005, 02:34:38 PM »
After rereading Fe's post a dozen or so times I think his point is that the taxation burden placed on the working class, who need the money most can cause people who otherwise would not abort a kid to do so on account of financial concerns.
Its a sound theory I suppose. I know finances were certainly a concern when my wife started getting pregnant. To someone on a tighter budget than I am I can see a person taking drastic steps to prevent bringing a kid into the world they couldnt support.

It really does burn me up when I think that a working stiff pays more than a guy who sits back & watches it flow in.

Again tho we're back to square one, the rich can contribute more to a campaigne in alot of ways than me so theyre guy gets nominated. Once that happens it seems I dont vote FOR anyone, I end up voting AGAINST the guy I like less.

I dont think they should be able to use theyre own or donated funds for campagning.
Give every candidate equal coverage in the media to spread their message & let the people decide who among them is best for our country on an equal playing field. Let the people think about who they want instead of letting promoters tell them who's the best & why his opponents is a bozo.
Let me figure it out, by listning & researching & making an educated choice based on real acomplishments or potential, not on who had a better PR expert or a richer daddy or a boo boo in Vietnam.

I'm sorry but all I want in an elected official is a guy who cares about the country & where its going & supports the constitution. As it stands now theres so many unconstitutional laws on the books a man like I want would have a hell of a job.
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Offline fe352v8

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« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2005, 07:56:21 AM »
Let me preface this by saying I am not a socialist or a communist in an economic or political sense, I like capitalism and democracy.  I am a conservative to the extent that conservative means leave me alone, and I am a liberal to the extent that your rights interfere with mine, and I am not a one worlder, at least not till the second coming.

What I find disturbing is that the two main political parties have acted in a manner to divide this country internally that no outside force has managed to.  There is no longer an open debate or discussion of issues.  Instead differences of opinion are dismissed by not by logic, based upon the ideas merits, but by label, one camp screaming liberal left wing, pinko secular humanist atheist, nut, and another screaming back conservative right wing Nazi, religious nut.

The electorate is no longer viewed as the American voter, but as a collection of small interest groups to be manipulated.  Both parties do this well.  They play to fears, and the basal prejudices and distrusts, manipulating and exploiting them for their own use.  Every individual has issues or priorities that they feel are important, by pandering to these, the parties have corrupted the unity of the population by isolating the individual, in an ideological, sense from the general population.  By pandering, I mean creating the appearance that an issue, important to an individual or group, is also important to the party and addressing it in a manner that shows concern but does nothing to meet the concerns of the individual or group, and then blaming the opposing party for the failure to address the concerns of the individual and group.  They will then further isolate the individual or group by posturing that only they, the party, are fighting for this issue, and demonizing those opposed.  The classic the enemy of my enemy is my friend; it is almost like watching a magician.  The cute assistance prancing on the stage distracting us is the empty rhetoric, and while distracted the magician, the party, does the “magic”.   In addition they will take an issue and change the context of it to suit the party’s position or to merely foster dissention.  The parties have learned controversy and demonizing, akin to talk radio, is the key to successes.

Look at one issue in a cold and unemotional way and the stated positions of the parties on them in contrast to their actions on them.

Gun Control:

The second amendment contemplates the government having the power to call up all able-bodied persons in the event of an emergency, and that those called up should arrived armed.  While some may question the need for a citizen militia in this era of modern war, my experience in Viet-Nam, left me with a great deal of respect for an indigenous ill equipped forces ability to inflict casualties on the most modern military in the world.  Considering the context in which the constitution and the bill of rights evolved, these were viewed as the ultimate defense against government tyranny and foreign intervention.  No I do not think the second amendment is inviolable, after all there is some speech that is prohibited. However look at a history of legislation that has involved gun rights.

1791 second amendment ratified
1934 national firearms act, bans automatic weapons with out license
1938 federal firearms act, requires sellers and importers to be licensed, bars some convicted of crimes from owning
1968 gun control act, mostly outlawed mail order gun sales, increased record keeping, expanded list of those prohibited from gun ownership
1986 LEO protection act, outlawed armor piercing ammo
1986 firearms owners protection act, eased some restrictions on sellers, mandated penalties for gun use in a crime
1990 Crime control act, outlawed assembly of illegal weapons from legally imported parts, created drug free school zones where possession or firing of guns carried special penalties
1994 Brady bill, 5 day waiting period and background checks
1994 assault weapons ban
2005 assault weapons ban expires

In general the Republican Party claims to support gun ownership and asserts the Democratic Party wants to ban all guns and the Democratic Party claims that control prevents crime and that Republicans do not care about the gun violence in America.  Both frame this as an all or nothing proposition, however with a framing of the debate as all or nothing, there is yet to be any legislation introduced that expands rights of ownership to any degree or reduces crime to any degree since 1968.  The Brady bill’s background checks were reasonable, if we can agree, that known some individuals should not be able to buy or posses a gun legally; the rest was stupid, as was the assault weapons ban, if one cannot hit you with 10 shots 20 probably will not help, and neither will a pistol grip, bayonet lug or flash suppressor.  But what did the party that claims to fight for our gun rights do, they did not remove the biggest impediment to gun ownership, in fact they do not mention it, ever, the 11% excise tax on firearms.  Nor do you see or hear of the Solicitor General or Attorney General trotting down to the Supreme Court and arguing that being the second amendment to the constitution gives individuals the right to keep and bear, as in carry, arms; a city or state has no right to prohibit the ownership or bearing of a firearm, being this right is enumerated in the constitution the right to regulate firearms is reserved to the federal government exclusively.  No their great contribution is issuing a non-binding opinion that the right, under the second amendment, is individual not collective, even though the courts took this up beginning almost 150 years ago.  Conversely the party that is concerned about gun violence does not support gun safety classes or hunter safety in schools, nor trot down to the Supreme Court.  Neither addresses the causes of gun related crime, just the symptoms and tools involved.

So why the all or nothing; to be sure there is the “slippery slope”, how you go from privacy to abortion, another fun topic of disingenuousness, by both parties.  Because it makes political sense, the aim is no longer public safety, but party power.  I find few gun owners that think it is a good idea to allow felons the right to purchase and posses guns, or that unrestricted ownership of machine guns is an idea whose time has come again, or that think buying guns by mail order does not present risks.  These seem reasonable, but if I tell you any gun legislation’s ultimate goal is to disarm you or that eliminating guns will lower crime I can polarize the context in which a discussion takes place, then the goal of public safety is no longer the issue, but the issue becomes one where any gun law is bad or any gun law is good, regardless of its effect or intent.  Both parties have done this without offering anything that has enhanced public safety since 1968.  As long as the parties can galvanize an individual or group, by empty rhetoric, words no action, and rally them to support with an us against them attitude concerning a narrowly defined issue, the parties can continue to exploit the interests of the group, and curry their support without worry that some of the individuals or groups might find the parties’ main objection distasteful, and insist that there be action in the interest of all, not just us.

To be sure there is always a small minority of people on both sides of a debate that are absolute.  However the vast majority of people can find a common ground, after all we live in the first country to have a written constitution, made from scratch, this was no mean feat in itself.  There are decent sincere people on both sides of any issue, but allowing political parties to exploit these honest points of view, and frame the context of debate makes it unlikely that we can achieve a consensus.  

The parties will continue divide the collectiveness of the America people as it creates the distraction needed to allow them to enrich themselves, at the expense of the populace.  Allowing ourselves to be manipulated into simplistic positions like all liberals are bad, or all conservatives are bad, and thus any liberal idea or conservative idea is bad, does nothing but insure that constructive ideas, intended for the good of the country are never measured, against the standard, is this good for the people, but are simply opposed by one side or the other.

A useful analogy is religion; there are over 33,000 Christian denominations, if a Methodist and a Baptist disagree over tenets of their churches do they automatically reject, out of hand, ideas for spreading the Gospel, because of it?  America has over 370,000,000 people, instead of denominations, and we disagree on matters of ideology, instead of articles of faith, and in lieu of spreading the Gospel, we come together under the Constitution.  So why is it constructive to allow ideas offered with the intent, “to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity”, as stated in the Constitution, to be dismissed on the basis that they were put forth by someone who disagrees with us on some article of ideology?  Maybe liberal ideas suck, or maybe conservative ideas suck, but we are all Americans and thus to paraphrase Lincoln, with a great deal of poetic license; All conservative or liberal ideas suck some of the time, and some conservative or liberal ideas suck all of the time, but all conservative or liberal ideas do not suck all of the time.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon
life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

Offline FWiedner

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« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2005, 09:12:44 AM »
The problem lies in the fact that The People, as a result of generations of indoctrination in government re-education centers, have bought into the idea that the only valid interpretation of the Constitution is the one provided by the government.

The 2nd Amendment facilitates the existence of militia not to serve  government in times of emergency, but to protect The People from government in time of emergency.  The 2nd Amendment is an inviolable directive to government stating plainly that government has no authority to deprive common men of arms of any type.

Republican, Democrat, Nazi, Communist, it makes no difference.  They are all philosophies cut from the same cloth.  They swear to good intentions and plead for power to make society in their ideal image.  They mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.  They promise to be good and kind masters, but they mean to be masters.

To paraphrase Lincoln: "We don't need evidence.  Arrest them all."

How often do humans need to be reminded that government, and people who support government, have but one desire,  and that is to rule over other men?

To flaming hell with religious banter, liberal and conservative politics both.

Most men know the difference between right and wrong.

.
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline Leverdude

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« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2005, 01:54:47 PM »
Personally party affiliation doesnt mean much to me. It does mean allot to allot of people tho. I'm registered republican & usually have voted that way mainly because the wealthy seem to feel comfy when theres a republican in power & when they spend money I have work to feed my kids & pay my bills. The second reason is they seem to hate me having guns less than democrats.
That said I don't hold being a democrat against anyone.

The real problem as Fweid said is no party really seems to care about much exept what they need to say to get elected. Its not about the country or its people but who wins or looses, so we all lose.

The way I see things the constitution was meant to be absolute in some things & the bill of rights was one. They saw that even tho it was a simple concept, this representative government they were setting up," for the people by the people" the fact that there would be people in power meant that those people could loose sight of what their job really was. They could come to believe that they were there to make change wether or not it was needed. They could selfishly abuse this power given to them & without restrictions this could only get worse as time goes on.
So they went back & put into writing, for everyone to see, the bill of rights.
These were meant to be a rule book for those who are trusted to make the rules. They were not meant to be altered or watered down. They were not meant to be given to the people who those in power saw fit to receive them.
They are absolute, period, no question.
The second ammendment was intended to enable a citizen to get any arms he desired, not the ones that someone says they can have.
They'll let just about anyone join the military & shoot people in other lands with machine guns but those guys come back home & suddenly they cant be trusted?

Not all people convicted of a crime labled felony or domestic violence are terrible either.

I might catch flak for this but I think if a man serves his time when he gets out his rights oughtta be restored. If he's not rehabilitated then they ought not let him out.

I dont think a guy who slaps his girlfriend, as wrong as it may be, should be disarmed for life. He didn't after all shoot her & to say he has no right to defend himself is pretty darn close to saying we dont care if you're killed. Maybe this guy that slapped his wife, five years later, somebody breaks into his house, rapes his wife & abuses his kids while he stands helplessly held at gunpoint. Did his girl deserve that? or his kids?
I'm not justifying domestic violence but lets let the punishment fit the crime.
A 19 year old gets caught smoking pot & his right to keep & bear arms, or to make it simple, his right to self defence is gone for life? Unless he's got enuff money to get people to believe he didn't inhale?
Is this kid smoking pot any more dangerous than the man who has a couple drinks too many sometimes?
Is his life worthless because he doesn't choose the socially accepted drug?

I dont think they meant for anyone to be denied their rights, any rights let alone the right to effectively defend yourself.

Its a slippery slope once we start taking rights away because of what someone might do.

Show me a democrat or anyone else who manages to get nominated who thinks the bill of rights are a list of irrevocable rights & I'll vote for that man.

The older I get, the more I pay attention to what elected officials do, the less I believe they give a fat rat fart about America.
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Offline hubcap

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A truly liberal view of abortion and gay marriage
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2005, 07:36:32 PM »
I think we should legalize homosexual marriage and take all restrictions off abortion---in about 20 years there will be no more liberals.   :-D
:D   GOD IS GOOD ALL THE TIME