.450 Marlin load data in marlin 45-70?

[jaycocreek]

Because the .450 has less case capcity using 45-70 data in it could be overloading.But what about .450 data in the 45-70?I read a review on the .450 and there data.63 gr. RE-7 for 2330 ave.fps.@ 41,800psi.I started at 58gr. same powder and had an ave of 2300.In the summer at about 75 degrees.No sighns of pressure and the recoil is less than 405gr.Was useing Win brass(largest cap of the brasses for the 45-70).I hunt in 20-30 degree weather witch should drop the pressure and velocity.When i reload these again i will drop the charge atleast a grain and stay in the 2200fps range.I have ten of these left at 2300.I only use them for hunting because of cost.Nos bullets.According to there test barrel it was a close to max charge.What do you think about my ten left?I feel safe because of shooting it but there are a lot of opinions and i am sure thats max. Mines a guide gun and so was theres.

[Gatofeo]

I have three words for using .450 Marlin data in the .45-70 ... NO NO NO!
You are dealing with two different cartridges.
I have a Marlin 1895 .45-70 purchased new in 1977. It will take some stout loads but the loads I've seen recommended for it the past 10 years give me the willies.
One load in particular that is frequently cited from Elmer Keith's writings --- 50 grs. of IMR3031 under the 405 gr. jacketed bullet --- is clearly too much pressure for my rifle.
Years ago I loaded a box, shot five rounds (examined the fired cases after each shot, which should be standard practice with every reloader using a new load) and never shot any more. I pulled the bullets.
Later, I determined that 50 grs. of IMR3031 was MAXIMUM in my rifle.
The point being: rifles vary greatly in their likes, dislikes, strengths and weaknesses. What is safe in one may be unsafe in another.
There are numerous yokels posting all kinds of "information" on the .45-70 with heavy loads on the internet today. ALWAYS check their information against the latest reloading manual, or a manual no more than five years old.
I've been waiting for your question to come up. Knew it was coming.
What so many reloaders forget, or never knew, is that each rifle is an individual. Also, case volume is not a benchmark to guide reloading. The seating depth of the bullet determines how much volume the case has at the time of firing, not total case length.
Forget using .450 Marlin data in the .45-70. And if anyone tells you they've done it, regard that person as a fool for taking such a risk.
Frankly, I can't understand all this hoopla about making the .45-70 into a Magnum. Factory loads, with their heavy bullets plodding along at 1,200 fps or so, have reliably killed game for over 125 years.
Just because X is good, doesn't mean that X-plus is better. Perhaps X is all that is required. When did our game suddenly become super-animals?
A classic example is the plethora of jacketed hollowpoints for the .45 Auto for self defense; nearly a century of use shows that the 230 gr. hardball bullet works just fine against human aggressors.
I've safely loaded my Marlin 1895 to 1,800 fps with a 400 gr. bullet but it's a real shoulder-spanker. Anymore, I load the same bullet down to 1,600 fps. And for plinking and target shooting, 1,200 fps is plenty.
With a proper load, bullet placement is more important than a couple hundred extra feet per second.

[jamie]

I gotta agree with Gatofeo on this.  Unless you have a Ruger #1 or an encore you need to stay away from the real hard stuff.  The 450 was produced to give those who do not handload an alternative to the trap door loads of the 45-70.   Since you already handload then you take 45-70 load data and make them as hot as your gun can stand.  As he also stated, what is safe in my gun will not always be safe in yours.  I ran more 3031 than he did,  they hurt way too much though.  Just find a nice load you can shoot accurately and as long as you are in the U.S.  it will kill whatever you shoot at.

[Slim Chance]

Something else to consider is that you will pass the point in loading the 45-70 that takes weaker actions apart before the case or primer shows any signs of excess pressure.

[Florida Jim]

I read this question with interest.
The 45-70 is probably my favorite caliber. I've been loading this caliber for thirty years, in everything from a Siamese Mauser, Ruger #3, Winchester 1886, Marlin 1895, Trap door springfields, Sharps, 1885 highwall, and a TC Contender, with both smokeless (a passing fad) and black powder.

I think the 450 Marlin was a creation for non reloaders to get a "lawyerproof" hot load with out being able to load them in an older rifle. Bearing in mind as was stated that each rifle is its own entity always start with reduced loads, and carefully work up.

I looked up the 450 marlin in the new 48th edition of Lymans reloading manual. I checked my favorite 45-70 hunting load powder (IMR 3031)in the 450  Lyman lists a max load of 52 grains with a 400 gr speer at 42,400 PSI. In the 45-70 With the 1895, 1886 load and a 405 Rremington, they list 51.5 at 26,200 CUP. Unfortunately there is no comparision between CUP and PSI, and lyman is using two different bullets.  (The Saami limit for 45-70 is 28,000 PSI in deference to the Trapdoors around), but the Marlin 336/'1895 is good for much more. But as you can see the loads are similar. Again I caution be very careful with max loads.

In my #3, I can load 53 grs of 3031 with a 405 Remington. But the recoil is a killer. I like the Nosler 300gr Partition with 55.5 grs of 3031. This load is very accurate in all my riflesand deadly to deer. Again I caution in the 1895 work up to it.
In a cast bullet fun load I like between 23-28 grs of Accurate 5744 not much recoil and fun to shoot.

Anyway thats my two cents

Jim

[DB Bill]

Mic McPherson, a fairly well-known writer, in a recent issue of either Precision Shooting or The Accurate Rifle had  articles about loading the 45/70 with cast bullets and loads for the 450 Marlin....both in the Marlin leve-action.  One of the statements he made....and this was strictly for Marlin lever-rifles, was any safe load in a 45/70 would be a safe load in a 450 Marlin and vice-versa.

With the restriction of OAL and the need to use blunt bullets I think it would be pretty hard to load too much of an appropriate powder into either case for something catastrophic to happen....maybe stretch things but......

[IronKnees]

I have to agree with the statement made above, which said that max. pressures "for your rifle", in this case the Marlin 1895 in .45-70 can be exceeded, NOT for the cartridge, but for the rifle itself... You will not see any outward signs of excessive pressure on the fired cartridge, but the strength of the rifle itself can easily be exceeded. In looking at two manuals, the loads you mention are WAY PAST MAX for the 1895 .45-70 lever gun... I would stay with loading data in the manuals ... Just IMHO
 

[Castaway]

I've read the posts to this thread and would like to clear up some confusion that I think has developed.  Hodgdon's manual lists loads for modern lever actions (Marlins') chambered in 45-70 and 450 Marlin.  In a side to side comparison, charges for the 450 were less than the 45-70, using the same bullet and powder.  As stated above, the 450 case has slightly less capacity than the 45-70, hence pressures will be greater in the 450, therefore less powder is required.  In other words, you can safely use 450 data in a comprable 45-70 rifle.  By comprable this means the Guide Gun.

[IronKnees]

Castaway, what you state is right on the money... however, unless I missread the original post, the loads stated are WAY over max. for both cartridges...

[ricciardelli]

Maximum loads using RL-7 powder for Marlin Guide gun in .450 Marlin and .45-70:

.45-70 with 250 grain bullet - 58.0 grains
.450 Marlin with 250 grain bullet - 54.6 grains

.45-70 with 300 grain bullet - 63.0 grains
.450 Marlin with 300 grain bullet - 55.0 grains

.45-70 with 350 grain bullet - 53.3 grains
.450 Marlin with 350 grain bullet - not recommended

.45-70 with 400 grain bullet - 60.0 grains
.450 Marlin with 400 grain bullet - not recommended

.45-70 with 500 grain bullet - 45.5 grains
.450 Marlin with 500 grain bullet - not recommended

[Ka6otm]

Well, I've tried all day to resist posting on this subject, but I guess I can't help myself.

Until a while back, I lived in Alaska.  I was looking for the perfect bear defense gun.  Notice I said defense.  I never did develop a taste for bear, so I don't hunt them.

However, while fishing during the salmon run, one frequently has to traipse through the alders to get to the bank of the river.  The path is typically about 2 bears wide and twists and turns constantly.  Encountering bear scat with just a little steam rising off of it in late June, early July can be just a bit unnerving, and I was looking for something to carry that didn't weigh as much as a .458 Winchester Mag. and carried more shells and fired faster.  Building a .458 American on a light stock was looking appealing but it still didn't have the Magazine capacity that I wanted or the rate of fire (although the rate of fire is probably a moot point).

Then it suddenly hit me:  The .458 American has almost exactly as much case capacity as a 45-70.  Marlin had just come out with their new model 1895 and when I examined it at a local gun shop, the receiver appeared to be identical to the one used on the .444 Marlin, a gun that is made to handle its SAAMI pressure limit of 44,000 CUP.  A phone call to Marlin verified that it was the same receiver.

I bought the gun, began slowly working up loads based on maximum loads in P.O. Ackley's Handbook for Shooters And Reloaders and ultimately got to a 400 grain Speer over 53 Grains of IMR3031...the maximum according to P.O. Ackley, and a phone call to Speer confirmed that it was indeed a safe load.  They claimed it had less than 28,000 CUP and were in the process of putting it in their Reloading handbook that was about to be released.  The year was 1974 and Speer has published that load continuously since that time, almost 30 years.

As a footnote and before someone else mentions it:  I later discovered that a 400 Grain Speer is not constructed properly to shoot at a Grizzly, but I didn't know that at the time and when I found out, switched to hard cast 405 Grainers with a gas check.

When you encounter Grizzly bear scat with wisps of steam coming off of it believe me, a hot loaded 45-70 becomes marginal.  My thoughts drift to a .50 BMG or bigger.

At any rate, the Marlin and also the 1886 Winchester are in kind of a never-never land with respect to 400 grain loads.  Speer is the only LARGE company making 400 grainers and publishing load data as far as I know.

It can be looked upon as a wildcat and treated and loaded as such once you cross over the line from trapdoor level pressure loads.

[sharpshooter]

I have a friend who just got a 450 marlin in the Encore Pistol with a muzzle break on it. He hasn't started reloading for it yet and is wondering if he should do so. When he got the gun he got a box of Hornady 350 grain bullets with. This pistol has some recoil to it, but to me it feels more like vibration coming through the wood grip. I suggested to him to get a rubber grip for it. All in all, we shot it a few times just at 33 yards with no sights of any kind, basically just to see what the recoil was like and how it was going to shoot. It shot really well. He just doesn't know what to compare it to, I told him the 45-70 would be the closest comparision. It is truely a awsome pistol. :-D

[KN]

All good posts here but one thing bothers me. Why would you want to? There is plenty of 45/70 load data out there for the picking so why try cross referencing when its not neccessary? Just my $.02.   KN