Silhouette Scope question

[rich56]

Please help me make a desision. For .22 stardard rifle, Bushnell 4200 6-24x or 8-32x. 8-32 is 1 inch longer and two ounces heavier. scopes are about the same price ($385) but 6-24 comes with 1/4'' dot. A dot (1/4 or 1/2") can be added to the 8-32 instead of crosshairs for $55. Your humble opinion please.

[CB]

I have a 4200 B@L and while the glass is crystal clear, the markings on the knobs are requiring mega focul eyeglasses to see the numbers, also a little weighty. Might check out the Weaver 24X, 1/2 min dot no extra, nice size numbers on the turrents, good glass. Try 512-246-7563 Pharr gunsmithing, I seem to recall he had? some? anyhow get pricing and ideas from several, wish I had on several fronts.
 Carroll

[eeleater]

I have thought about the Busnell 4200 8X32 with 1/2 in dot also- but for a target air rifle, so weight is less of an issue.

The disadvantages I see are:

1/8 minute clicks and limited MOA adjustment range.  You will be making over one revolution going from chickens to rams increasing the chances of confusion.  You will also need to have the middle of the adjustment range on the turkeys or you may not have as many "clicks" as you need- and most scopes are less consistent near the end of the adjustment range.

The 8 to 32 magnification is a 1:4 change.  This is doable- but has disadvantages.  There are reasons the Leupold 6.5 x 20 is not a 6.5 by 25.  If I recall corrently the exit pupil of the busnell 8 x32 is 1.7 mm, and the Leupold 6.5 x 20 EFR is 2.2 mm.  The area of the exit pupil is then 3.80 mmsq for the leupold- but only 2.27 on the Bushnell ( about 40% less).  In practical terms this means head position will be much more critical for the Bushnell.  This may not be an issue if you and the stock match up well-  if not- you are likley to spend time moving you head trying to see through the scope and get the full field of view.

[jneihouse]

I have 3 leupolds, 2 6.5X20 that have been doubled by Premier reticle and an 8.5X25 that has been modified by premier reticle with the Silhouette dot and reticle.  Very happy with all.  Both 6.5X20's bumped are on my Silhouette rifles and are great the 8.5X25 is on my backup gun.

[eeleater]

I forgot to add to my earlier reply that I called bushnell and was told that the dots they add stay the same MOA throughout the magnification range.  

The current dots by premier change in MOA as the magnification varies.

I agree with Jneihouse about the Leupolds and Premier bumps and dots.  
The used 6.5 x 20 EFR's are going on Ebay for around $500.  I just bought one for $485.  I think it is worth the extra 100$.  The cost of a premier dot is about the same ($65 if I recall).    There is a cost savings aof about $30 if premier does the dot and boost at the same time.  I will start saving and do that later.  If I was going to do it all at one time I would simply buy one for Premier unless I had a VERY good price on a used one.

[Jerry G]

What ever you get, get a large dot.  At least 3/8.

[dave imas]

whatever you do, be careful to be sure to make your own decision based upon as much first hand knowledge and experience as you can.  The good folks here are all more than willing to offer free advice in an attempt to help you avoid costly mistakes...  most everyone's heart is in exactly the right place.  but...  not all the advice will be applicable to you.  much of it, just like advice elsewhere, is worth exactly what you payed for it.  much of it is based upon personal preference.  for instance, i disagree with much of what you have been told here regarding scope selection.  

personal preference...  i prefer a smaller dot. 1/4 minute.  doesn't distract me from focusing on the spot on the target i'm attempting to hit.  a larger dot will be more apt to cause a distraction.  true it can be difficult to see a smaller dot in low light and on black animals but we don't shoot that often in low light or on black animals so i'm fine with the trade off.

personal preference... i wouldn't bump a scope.  i think the most common mistake made by shooters is to use too much magnification.  most shooters can be successful with something between 12x and 24x.

personal preference...  i prefer 1/4 minute adjustments but will compromise and use 1/8th minute adjustments to get a scope that tracks well.  either one doesn't make a difference if your scope doesn't track reliably.  the Bushnell 4200 elite tracks well.  typically better than the higher priced Leuopolds.  i use a sightron.  it has 1/8 minute adjustments.  it tracks much better than a Leupold.   i sold all my leupolds because they don't track reliably.
i don't go past zero when i adjust for rams.  you might have to given your combination of scope, scope height, velocity of ammunition, and length of barrel.  going past zero can be annoying but not nearly as much as a scope that doesn't adjust as it is supposed to.  going past zero can be dealt with by just paying attention to what you are doing.

this is all nothing more than my personal preference.  no more or less valuable.  now that you have some background and information from a number of folks, go figure it out yourself!  
dave imas

[shootingpaul]

I only have B&L 4200 on all my guns, these are great scopes, 1/4 min dot, very - VERY clear optics, 1/8 min adjustment.  You will go past one revolution from chickens to rams, but if you just deal with this scopes then you will learn it and remember your settings.
There are a lot shooters that are using Leopolds, but you read Dave's comment, what I can add to it is that they are highly priced.
my 2cents worth is that if you are over 67 years old and can not remember what animal you shot last - then you should never go over one full turn in adjustments.  If you know what you are doing then it will work just fine for you - hey! it works just fine for me!!

[hh4064]

Just last yr I sent all my scopes into premier to have 1/2 minute dots installed.......I wished I would have installed a 5/8 dot. I love the larger dot it is soooooooooooo easy to see. It takes away ALL the eye strain. It also makes it easier to concentrate
mbj
mi

[Jason]

I've only been shooting silhouette for a little over a year, but that means I've been doing a lot of experimenting lately to see what works for me.

As for dot size, I've tried 1/8, 1/4, and 1/2 minute dots so far. The 1/8 was too small for anything but perfect conditions. The 1/4 minute dot was much nicer and worked well. Based on that, I thought the 1/2 minute dot would be better still. It wasn't. Since I try to concentrate on a point on the target and have the gun fire nearly subconsciously as the dot touches that point, I had trouble with such a big dot making me lose concentration on that point as it passed over it and covered it. That said, I think a 3/8 dot might just be the perfect size, but I haven't had a chance to use one of those much yet. Also keep in mind that most variable power scopes have dots that change in size relative to the target as the magnification is changed. As for magnification, I'm still undecided on that myself. I've been trying different settings and feeling things out more lately, and evidently I've hit a good combination at 18x. I just went from A class to AA class in hunter last weekend, thanks to shooting a AAA score.

I guess you can also count me in as another who doesn't mind 1/8th minute clicks. I actually like having the finer control on the scope settings and don't mind going more than one revolution. Unless you have settings exactly a complete revolution apart, it shouldn't be too hard to see which animal you're set for. Scopes with target turrets almost always have numbers on the turret itself under the adjustment knob, so you can see which revolution it's currently on. If all that fails, just look at your AO to see what distance it's set on. That'll be a pretty strong hint of which animal you were shooting last. Also, if moving one revolution of adjustment is getting you out near the end of your scopes adjustment range, then you probably need a better mounting solution. :grin:

[dave imas]

i almost hate to post this and, please, i really don't mean to offend or start a heated discussion...  but...  the point isn't to watch the dot.  think of the dot as the rear sights on a handgun.  they have to be there, correct alignment is critical to an accurate shot, but you don't watch them.  with the dot on the rifle you want to watch the spot on the target you have chosen for your point of aim and let the dot come to it.  you don't want to watch the dot and force the dot to the spot...  all of this assumes that you are generally holding within or about the animal to start with.   if you have a dot that is overly big, it will distract you from your chosen point of aim on the target and your eye will begin to follow the dot.  far too often right off the entire animal.   remember what mel said...  aim small miss small.  
tough to explain here and i'm sure there are successful shooters out there that do it differently...
just my one cents worth.
dave

[GeoNLR]

Mr. Imas,

You sir are really starting to p@#$ me off... LOL Just kidding..

Question for you, How do you aim at a small spot on the animal while shooting such low power optics. When all is well in my world (seldom) I can really bear down on a paint flake or discoloration..but that is on 40X not 6 or 12X. Heck even on 18X I feel like I am looking at the entire world through my scope...Thanks for any input...

Chicken

[dave imas]

Good Question Chicken.
Answer is simple...  on 6x i can't.  there isn't enough magnification to see anything more than just the animal.  you don't cross fire tho!

Because of that i've moved to 16x - 20x depending upon my mood.  Any more than that and i feel uncomfortable.  so i just attempt to focus on the spot on the target and when the dot wanders on over to the spot i want an unconscious break.  

that is what i'm working for...  training my brain to do.  focus on the spot, when the dot gets there, break the trigger....  don't think "break the trigger"   it has to be an unconscious break.  it has to go all by itself.  

that requires pre-loading the trigger.

after that, a solid follow thru ensures a hit.

if we get out of our own way and stop thinking while we are shooting this game can actually get pretty simple.  one aspect of that is to eliminate distractions which brings us back the original point...  too large a dot can be a distraction.

be thinking about coming up to Washington for the Conard Cup next year Chicken.  and bring long pants!  it do get chilleh up roun heah.
dave

[genphideaux]

Dave,

Some good info there, all would do well to listen.

Chick,

you need to go to a 60x scope, need to become one with the paint chip



...........and there off.... bad dawg throwing out shameless complement.......chick faulters then slams in the corner........let me tell ya somthing coming up fast............my scopes better than your's ready to make an inside move........I'll kick your edging into the pack......Zen's presence being felt........

[nomad]

After about 20K hours driving aircraft, I've come to believe -- firmly -- the old adage: "There are two kinds of pilots flying retractable gear...those who HAVE landed gear up and those who haven't...YET!"

Same applies to 1/8 moa click scopes. If you have one, the odds are that, sooner or later, you're going to wind up a rev off.
(As far as any accuracy advantage accruing to 1/8 moa clicks, the MOST error you can have with 1/4 moa adjustments -- IF your poi falls directly in the center of a click space -- is 1/8 moa. NOBODY holds 1/8 moa offhand.)

All that said, there are good scopes out there with only 1/8 moa adjustments and many of us are using them. If you're among us, it's easy to fix the problem:
Make -- or have made -- a 'collar' (spacer) out of Delrin, aluminum, whatever, that fits over the adjustment turret cylinder and 'stops' the dial just below minimum zero. (It's just a screw. As you turn it to lower elevation, it moves 'into' the housing.) Careful measurement will give you the depth needed for this spacer. With a Bushnell, it can usually be done with an appropriately thick washer -- you just have to drill the hole out. Whenever you're not absolutely certain where you are on the dial -- or if you've left the rifle on line where some kind soul might have reset your adjustments for you (which isn't common but does happen) -- you just spin it down to the 'stop' and come back up. Works perfectly and, if you're careful with the sizing and wind up 'stopping' just a minute or so below chicken setting, you don't even have to look at the dial to reset. If you're really a 'belt and suspenders' type, you can do the same with windage...with the understanding that you need enough clearance to go left at least a few minutes!

BTW,

The info given by Bushnell to eeleater sounds wrong to me. The SIZE of a dot will not change in a 2nd focal plane scope -- which is all AFAIK that Bushnell offers -- but the 'subtension' (moa coverage of any one dot/spacing for multiple dots, etc) WILL change. Only in 1st focal plane scopes does the relationship of the reticle and the image remain the same. Premier has done 1st focal plane conversions in the past. Whether they are doing them now, I don't know.

[eeleater]

Nomad.

I called Bushnell customer assistance and talked with what sounded like a younger woman (well a woman).  I asked if the MOA coverage of the dot changed as the magnification changed.  Her reply was that it did not as it was in the first focal plane.  This answer was given promptly- not like it was being looked up , and she did not ask anyone else.  

The answer being prompt does not mean it was correct.  
Perhaps one of our viewers has actually had this done and can give a definitive answer.

Also- good suggestion about the washer to limit the downward travel.

[nomad]

eeleater,

If Bushnell is making a 1st focal plane scope, she's right. The problem is that (AFAIK) they aren't.

I have a 4200 6-24x and it's a 2nd focal plane scope, I've looked at lots of others on friends' rifles and they've all been the same as mine.

If you go to their site and look at the info on their mil-dot reticle, you'll see specific instructions to use the scope at 12x for mil-scale ranging since that's where it's calibrated. That would be valid only with a 2nd focal plane scope. One with the reticle in the 1st focal plane -- where the reticle magnifies directly with the image -- can be used for ranging at any power setting. http://www.bushnell.com/customer_service/manuals/riflescopes/Elite_Mil_Dot_Reticle.pdf

Was she telling you that they MAKE a 1st focal plane model?
Or that they have a custom shop offering to CONVERT a scope to 1st focal plane?

Curiouser and curiouser!  :shock:

[eeleater]

Nomad

I was asking about their custom shop offer on the web site to install a 1/4 or 1/2 MOA dot for $55.  I was asking about the 8 x 32 model.  For this conversion you ship the scope to Kansas City.  If it goes someplace else from there I do not know.  She also made a reference to its being like the "european scopes"- which also made me think she knew what she was talking about.  

I know that they have had a repair facility in Kansas City for many years.

I will try to to call again and see if we get the same answer, though it may be a while before I get a chance to do so.

[nomad]

eeleater,

Thank you but I'll phone them on Monday. You've got me curious.

I do know that a friend has sent a couple of 4200s in for rework and they came back just as they had been except for the reticle change.
Maybe this is a recent development.

I'll post here what I find out.

[nomad]

eeleater et al:

Spoke this am with 'Bruce' at Bushnell optics customer service.

After we discussed the difference between 1st & 2nd focal plane scopes (he was a little unclear about the terms at first -- although he did tell me that he 'knew a lot about scopes') ;-) he told me that they make no scopes with magnifying reticles...everything they make is non-magnifying and, in line with the instructions on the website, the reticle subtension will change inversely with power shifts.

That won't stop the rotation of the earth but it's sorta too bad -- I like 1st focal plane scopes for this game since I think that the constant relationship of dot-to-target is easier to work with. (Now if I could just get that damn dot to slow down once in a while on the animal so I wouldn't get whupped by every so-and-so on the line!)  :-D