Author Topic: .257 Roberts, Why......... (Read 2343 times)

Lawdog · « **on:** April 06, 2005, 12:50:46 PM »

Seeing how so many are always saying that the .257 Roberts never got the recognition that it deserves has got me wondering what everyone thinks is the reason for this. Could it be that the original loading used those ugly round nose 117 gr. bullets that were stuffed way to far down into the case that hurt? Was the .243 Winchester, that has been given the credit for its demise, really that better looking/performing a cartridge in a factory load? Come on fans of the Quarter Bore what is your take on this? Lawdog

Don Fischer · « **Reply #1 on:** April 06, 2005, 02:10:37 PM »

I hate that little smilely wavy guy. You think it's funny making us think don't you?

Been thinking about this to much and got an opinion about why the 243 made it and the Robert's didn't. The 243 carries the winchester name. The Robert's doesn't. What would you spend more effort marketing, something with your name on it or something with someone else's name?

Warren Page did all the ground work for them but they didn't call it the 243 Page did they. Remington didn't call the 22-250 the 22 Gebby or the 25-06 the 25 Neidner. The 6mm Rem is not call nor was it marketed as the 243 RCBS. And when the stuff is in the factory box why would they want to have someone else's name on their box.

It has to be marketing. I doubt that anyone in love with the 243 ever gave the Robert's or the 250 Savage even a second thought. There is nothing the Robert's or 250 Savage won't do a bit better than the 24's except carry the flag for Winchester or Remington. Do you believe that the 25-06 would have it's popularity today if Federal had made the commerical round's? Nope! They didn't have a vehicle to put it in and Winchester and Remington Pretty much manufacture for their own cartridge's. The only reason remington manufactures 243's is they're so popular. Winchester refuses to acknowledge the existence of the 6mm Rem. If you want to use Win case's to load your 6mm Rem, you have to make them from Win 7x57 cases.

Carl l. · « **Reply #2 on:** April 06, 2005, 02:28:44 PM »

Lawdog, I don't know if I can answer your question or not, but here is my .2 cents worth. I have hunted the best part of my life with a .257. It is my favorite cal. When I bought my first .257 I used factory loads and the best groups that I could get with them was 3" at 100 yds. This was in 1960, so I started to handload. I tried everything. I found that my .257 would shoot 87 gr. and 100 gr better than anything else. I got it to shoot 1/2" groups all day long.

The .243 would shoot factory loads a lot better than the .257 and people would buy them before a .257. They quit making the .257 ( I think in 1962 ) and nobody made them till 1970 when Ruger started making them. I have one of them also. I also think the 25-06 is a little better than the .257 and that hurt also. Carl L.

while99 · « **Reply #3 on:** April 06, 2005, 03:28:17 PM »

Winchester does make ammo for the 6 mm Remington. Here's the link to the web site.

http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/cfrdetail.aspx?symbol=X6MMR2&cart=Nm1tIFJlbWluZ3Rvbg==

Winchester also makes 6 mm brass for reloading. I have a couple of bags full of Winchester 6mm brass that I bought from Cabelas or Midway a few years ago.

I'm a big 6 mm fan but I have to admit that the .257 Roberts is a more versatile, dual-purpose cartridge. The .257 was never loaded to its full potential. I think if Winchester had offered it in the pre-64 Model 70 Featherweight, as they did with the .243, the .257 Roberts would have remained popular.

Don Fischer · « **Reply #4 on:** April 06, 2005, 06:29:46 PM »

When did they start? For years they wouldn't do it.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #5 on:** April 07, 2005, 03:16:12 AM »

My thought is that the .243 and .25.06 are based on very popular military cases, and work through a "standard" long or short action. Any round based on a US military case seems to have an advantage in the popularity department, probably because of the availability of cases and surplus rifles and ammunition.

The Roberts is based on the 7 X 57mm case, which is just a little to long to work through most short actions. While not an issue with me, it is with some who want a "compact" rifle.

The Roberts is a great round that I've wanted for several years. One of these days I'll have one..........I will say, I've owned a variety of .243's over the years.......and think it's one of the greatest rounds ever made for what I do with it.........

Mac11700 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 07, 2005, 08:22:20 AM »

Isn't another reason the choice of bullets for the two?...The 243 utilizes a lighter bullet...hence higher velocities...and isn't this what drives sales... the velocity craze?

?...comparing the 2 different cartridges...it would seem the 243 has several advantages over the 257 Roberts...making it seem a more logical choice for a 1 rifle hunter.....who wants to varmint hunt as well as deer hunt...In my readings on the beginnings of this cartridge...a-lot of the older 257 Roberts had accuracy problems being long throated...and the new 243's didn't have that...

Mac

Lawdog · « **Reply #7 on:** April 07, 2005, 11:31:38 AM »

while99,

Winchester did offer the pre-64 M70 in the .257 Roberts. I had one(and let a guy talk me into trading it off :cry: ) that had a Weaver K8 mounted on it. With factory ammo it would group any better than 2 1/2 to 3 but with reloads it was a tack driver. The main problem I found was the bullets were seated too deep on factory ammo but that was so it would work thru the factory magazines(like on my pre-64 M70). As victorcharlie stated,

Quote

The Roberts is based on the 7 X 57mm case, which is just a little to long to work through most short actions.

is a big reason why the Roberts didnt get the recognition it deserved. A longer action which would have let the factory seat the bullets further out would have done wonders for the .257 Roberts accuracy. Lawdog

kombi1976 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 07, 2005, 05:05:46 PM »

Quote from: Lawdog

Quote
The Roberts is based on the 7 X 57mm case, which is just a little to long to work through most short actions.

is a big reason why the Roberts didnt get the recognition it deserved. A longer action which would have let the factory seat the bullets further out would have done wonders for the .257 Roberts accuracy. Lawdog

I totally agree.
Also the 308 Win was the new American wonder-cartridge and the whiz bang parent case that could do anything.
Why buy a cartridge based on an old European case when you can get one built on the new super cartridge?
You have to blame insular thinking on some of it.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #9 on:** April 07, 2005, 05:31:45 PM »

Frankly I'm not concerned about why, although I can think of several possible reasons, but I am thankful!

Some guy sold me a like-new 1989 Ruger .257 Roberts with a Leupold M8 4x for $400. He had no use for it, now its one of my favorites. :grin:

I suspect a significant reason is the 45,000 CUP SAAMI MAP limited velocity. My loads are all '+P'.

kombi1976 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 07, 2005, 06:00:39 PM »

Quote from: Coyote Hunter

I suspect a significant reason is the 45,000 CUP SAAMI MAP limited velocity. My loads are all '+P'.

Based on the similar specs to the 7x57 you should be able to load .257 Roberts all the way up to 50,000 CUP with a nice strong action.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Big Paulie · « **Reply #11 on:** April 08, 2005, 10:52:06 AM »

Here's why:

1. The .257 Roberts is a great cartridge, but only if you handload. If you do not, it is a loser in terms of accuracy, and the factory loaded bullets traditionally offered in the round were terrible.

2. Probably 9 out of 10 hunters do not handload, and do not want to handload.

End of Story.

Big Paulie

Racepres · « **Reply #12 on:** April 08, 2005, 05:41:20 PM »

however , if Win./ Rem./ Ruger/ Savage/ somebody!!! offered the 257 with the newest "premium" bullet,,.. loaded to "factory' or "enhanced" velocity, "magnumized" ... new and improved , ballisticly(sp) superior loading. it would sell.. Period!!! Yes it was said before ... Marketing!!!!! Marty (BTW I like mine just like it is...)

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #13 on:** April 08, 2005, 07:02:23 PM »

I have a box of Federal Premium .257 Roberts (+P) 120g Nosler Partition loads. Accuracy was OK, but velocity was only 2682fps.

My handloads get 2904fps for the 120g Partition, and 2899fps for the 120g Speer Grand Slam. The 115g Barnes TSX's get 3010fps with H4350.

I agree the .257 Roberts is a handloaders cartridge.

while99 · « **Reply #14 on:** April 09, 2005, 08:36:07 AM »

Lawdog,

Re-read my original post. It said " I think if Winchester had offered it in the pre-64 Model 70 FEATHERWEIGHT,......". I know that Winchester offered the .257 in the standard weight rifle but not the Featherweight. The .243 was offered in the Featherweight and became a big seller, partly because of that offering.

Lawdog · « **Reply #15 on:** April 09, 2005, 11:31:56 AM »

Quote from: while99

Lawdog,

Re-read my original post. It said " I think if Winchester had offered it in the pre-64 Model 70 FEATHERWEIGHT,......". I know that Winchester offered the .257 in the standard weight rifle but not the Featherweight. The .243 was offered in the Featherweight and became a big seller, partly because of that offering.

Some of the cataloged calibers that the Win. pre-64 M70 Featherweight(22 barrel) were available in were, .220 Swift, .243 Win., .250 Savage, .257 Roberts, .270 Win., 7x57mm Mauser, 7.65mm Argentine, .300 Savage, .308 Win., and .30-06 Springfield(this is according to Winchester). The .257 Roberts I had was a Featherweight. Lawdog

while99 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 09, 2005, 06:21:33 PM »

Lawdog,

Interesting. I just looked through Roger Rule's book on the pre-64 Model 70 and the only cataloged featherweights he lists are in the following calibers: .243, .264, .308, .358, .270, .30/06. However, there could have been custom shop featherweights produced in any caliber.
Do you have the symbol numbers of the calibers you listed in your last post? For example, the symbol number for a .243 featherweight was G7062. The calibers you list should have similar symbol numbers, i.e. the letter G followed by four numbers. I'd like to pass this info along to Mr. Rule.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #17 on:** April 09, 2005, 07:31:08 PM »

Quote from: kombi1976

Based on the similar specs to the 7x57 you should be able to load .257 Roberts all the way up to 50,000 CUP with a nice strong action.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

In fact, the "+P" limit listed in Speers' #12 is 50,000 CUP. Ruger builds the .25-06 on the same action as my Ruger .257 Roberts, and the .25-06 has a SAAMI MAP of 53,000 CUP. The .300 Win Mag is also built on that action, and it has a 54,000 CUP SAAMI MAP. There is probably room to hotrod, but I'm content to stay in the 50,000 CUP range. If I need more I can always reach for the 7mm Mag...

Ramrod · « **Reply #18 on:** April 10, 2005, 04:29:07 AM »

Well, I might as well throw in my :money: The .243 did just about kill the .257 Roberts because the gun buying public saw it as a better deer/varmint combo. The .257 is and always was a gun nut's kind of round. That 7x57mm case it is based on is the main problem. It's too long for a short action, but right at home obviously in a milsurp. And after two World Wars, the gun nuts were re-barrelling all sorts of war trophy military rifles for it, some good and strong, and some just plain junk. It was with good reason the ammo makers loaded it to lower pressures, just as they had been doing with the 7x57mm and the 8x57mm. Two more good rounds that never became that popular with the average hunter, competing as they were with the .270 and .30-06.

Lawdog · « **Reply #19 on:** April 10, 2005, 08:42:15 AM »

Quote from: while99

Lawdog,

Interesting. I just looked through Roger Rule's book on the pre-64 Model 70 and the only cataloged featherweights he lists are in the following calibers: .243, .264, .308, .358, .270, .30/06. However, there could have been custom shop featherweights produced in any caliber.
Do you have the symbol numbers of the calibers you listed in your last post? For example, the symbol number for a .243 featherweight was G7062. The calibers you list should have similar symbol numbers, i.e. the letter G followed by four numbers. I'd like to pass this info along to Mr. Rule.

The Winchester technician that wrote me told me the following was the sure way of telling the difference between the standard M70 and the Featherweight in the [re-64 versions.

Quote

The Featherweight was introduced in 1952 & used a shorter barrel, 22", with no rear sight hump, & the guard bow (trigger guard) & magazine cover were made of black annodized aluminum. The buttplate was also aluminum. The stock had 2 holes drilled about 7" deep under the buttplate. All other metal parts interchanged with the standard gun.

The .257 Roberts I had fit this description to a tee. And like I said I no longer have that rifle. I wish nothing but good to the guy that talked me into trading(like may he come down with warts :twisted: ). Lawdog

while99 · « **Reply #20 on:** April 10, 2005, 12:48:55 PM »

Lawdog,
Interesting info. And I know how you feel about parting with a rifle that you liked so much. I wish the Winchester guy had given you the symbol numbers for the chamberings you listed.

lilabner · « **Reply #21 on:** April 16, 2005, 07:28:38 AM »

I think you pretty much covered the reasons for the demise of the .257 in your question. I've hunted with the .250 Savage, the .257 and the 25-06 and all are fine deer cartridges. The 25-06 is clearly superior in the ballistics department but burns more powder, makes more noise and even kicks a little. Unless the hunt requires shots at very long range, I prefer the .257. I shoot only handloads and all three rounds are inherently accurate in my experience. I believe the .243 got a lot of publicity for flat trajectory, light recoil and accuracy (all true) and the short action fit didn't hurt any. Also, a lot of people bought .243s on the strength of having a rifle that would work well on both varmints and deer and gun writers emphasized the versatility angle. Many .243s were purchased for wives and kids. Yes, it pretty much killed off the .257 and the .250 but the 25-06 is at a totally different performance level, is an excellent cartridge and will survive. You probably can't say that about the .26 Remington!

cal sibley · « **Reply #22 on:** July 08, 2005, 01:47:17 PM »

I think the 6mm craze all but finished off the Roberts. The idea of a dual purpose varmint/deer cartridge was just too much to compete with. Sales of the .243Win. just swamped the .257Roberts round. The .25-06 played a large part also. It was extremely popular for a wildcat, and when Remington took it under wing that all but doomed the Roberts. It's far from dead. Every so often it'll make a comeback for a couple of years, but it rarely lasts or sells in large numbers. I liked the .257Roberts, but there weren't enough of us byuying it. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

mmsb27 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 10, 2005, 11:36:22 AM »

The 257 Roberts is a great round. Have used one for years (Ruger). Also think the 6,5x55 is an other one that is great, yet has little following. After shooting both, I think
I prefer the 6,5x55 because I can shoot 139/140 bullets -- and the recoil is still reasonable. The 280 Rem is another favorite... Having said all of that - I enjoy the odd balls........... reality, and expirence tells me that a 308 Win, 270 Win or 30-06 are great too. I like choices.

regards
Mark

cal sibley · « **Reply #24 on:** August 10, 2005, 09:55:13 PM »

This, of course, is just one mans opinion. The .243Win. was a bit of a hotrod when introduced. The public really took to it. On the top end was the .25-06, even more of a barn burner. I doubt the .257Roberts had much of a future, hemmed in as it was betwen these two. I've always liked the .257, a very good cartridge, but I think its fate was sealed. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Dave in WV · « **Reply #25 on:** August 11, 2005, 05:52:40 AM »

If the .243 started the demise of the 257 bob, the 25-06 nailed the coffin shut. Back in the day there were few short actions so when the 25-06 came out you used all of the magazine well.

kombi1976 · « **Reply #26 on:** August 11, 2005, 01:45:08 PM »

The 243 was based on the new military wonder case and the 25-06 is based on Grandpa's old fave.
Both shoot super fast.
The truth is that as much as people say they want managable comfortable rifles to shoot the truth is that they're willing to put up a loud and hard kicking round if it's flashy.
Both the Savage and the Roberts provide excellent performance in relation to the their powder use and recoil but they weren't flashy enough.
Besides, who wants to use an older cartridge when you can use "the newest greatest thing"?
The same reason why people are wasting their money on WSSM cartridges......and I stand by that comment. :?