22RF jacket fouling and moly coating

[pogo]

If anyone can stand another moly question, here it is...

I used to make up 224 bullets from 22RF hulls, and still have a couple coffee cans of jackets.

I stopped using them due to that hard fouling in the barrel about 2/3 the way up.  This fouling, same as described by Corbin in "ReDiscover Swaging," was very hard to remove AND formed fairly quickly in my favorite 223.

Does anyone else have experience with this fouling, and would tumbling completed RF jacketed bullets prevent this fouling?  I've been skeptical of moly coating since the beginning, but this is starting to sound like the best solution for that problem.

[Donna]

Hello,

The only thing I see is were he takes about the hardening of the surface of barrel steel by the hot nitrides from the powder gases, but that is only the riflings that is relatively close to the leade (throat) of the bore were the pressure and temperatures are the highest.

Could you let us know what page and paragraph you are referring to in the book “Rediscover Swaging”? Because I must have missed it.

Donna

[talon]

I've noticed that when I tumble freshly finished bullets in corncob media,  the discoloration (oxidation) caused by annealing 'goes away'. This means that the surface oxidation on those .22 hulls, after annealing, if not tumbled for a few hours and then wiped down, COULD be contributing to your fouling problem. Too, I suspect there is a wide range of brass alloys used by various manufactures, at various times, of those ubiquitous .22 hulls. So what process you use to clear the oxidation for one type may not work on another.  

[pogo]

I don't recall where in the book I saw that fouling forming 2/3rds the way down the barrel.  It is just a constant problem I had and I noticed he mentioned the same thing in the same location in the barrel.

I havent seen the book in a couple years.  I am sure I have it in a box somewhere.  

I didn't think oxides may have been the cause of the fouling.  It might be, as my best bullets had a slight tarnish.  I usually tumbled the annealed jackets bright in corncob media and then formed bullets with them.

Good question:  How do YOU clean the jackets before derimming, after annealing, and after point forming?

Boiling water is supposed to be the best for removing spent priming compound, but after that?

[Eric-J]

Hello everybody,
I have noticed the same fouling problem in my barrel with shooting .22 RF jacketed bullets.
I am shooting a SIG 550 with a 1-10" twist barrel which is very smooth/shiny and I swage 60-62 grain bullets using mostly CCI jackets.
The barrel has brass build up on the lands just before the gas port; it starts about 1 inch before the gasport and ends at the gas port. I have tried almost everything to avoid this fouling; changing powder : VV-133, VV-135, VV-140, PCL507 ( a ball powder). Tried to use grease on the bullet like the Swiss did with their 7.5x55 cartridge, changed the brand of the .22RF case, loaded the cartridges at a very low speed(2000fps), tumbled the bullets till they where shiny, removed the oxide skin with vinegar and/or cillit-bang, used different primers, did I forget something ?
Nothing seems to be the answer to the problem. The fouled spot in the barrel remains and at excactly the same spot ! With gilding metal jackets there is no problem at all in the barrel !
After cleaning the barrel (hard to get the fouling out) there is nothing to see what could be the problem, the barrel shoots perfectly, even when the fouling is there!
I am out of options here, has somebody any idea's to solve my problem ?

Eric from the Netherlands

[MrBill]

Edited.  See below

[MrBill]

I have been making bullets from 22 RF jackets for a good while and have shot them for a good while also.   Here's my take of the subject:  The fouling problem you mention can be dealt with by first polishing the completed bullets in corncob or whatever you have a liking for, but it's only the first step.  Next, you're going to go to the local NAPA dealer and purchase a bottle of powdered graphite, then you need a bag of #9 chilled lead shot.  In a sealed rotary tumbling vessel, combine a couple hundred bullets, a tablespoon of graphite powder and several pounds of lead shot.  Tumble for about four hours, separate the shot from the bullets, place the bullets on a terrycloth towel which you will roll up into a cylinder, and give them about five shakes to clean and polish them a bit.  Load and use as normal and see if it helps your fouling problem.  If not, the graphite can be removed in soapy water and you're back to square one.  BTW, if you make lead tip bullets this process will not damage your lead tips like steel shot will.

A friend of mine in Maine uses these bullets at full power in his 22-250 to really wreck woodchucks at ranges out to 200 yards.  What's left isn't pretty.  Neither of us have tested at ranges beyond 200 yds., though.  Of course your experience can and will vary.  I use only Wolf Match ammo for these jackets as it seems to be more consistent in length and weight than most others, and requires less annealing.  Eley brass seems to be the most brittle of all I've tried and certainly requires attention before trying any sort of point forming.  One thing about using match brass is that most match rifle firing pins do minimal damage to the rims, thereby avoiding holes in the jackets.

Somebody also asked about cleaning the inside of hulls.   Go ahead and use hot soapy water to get them as clean as you are able,  then after de-rimming,  tumble the jackets for an hour or so in a sealed rotary tumbling vessel along with a big handful of #9 lead shot.  You can use the shot several times before it loses its effectiveness, at which point you can use it to graphite plate bullets or whatever else you may have in mind for it.  The jackets come out with very clean interiors and a nice polish on the outside.

As previously stated, your experience may very well differ from mine.  I assume no responsibility whatsoever for any sort of problems you may experience as a result of using the above information.  I hope this helps, guys.

[techshooter]

While detailed process of putting a coating on the bullet it interesting, it is obsolete already, and has been for many years in comparison to just making the barrel steel interior bullet-proof.

Because this is a very small surface compared with hundreds or thousands of bullets, treating it a few times is very inexpesive when you are just combining and electro-chemical conversion surface that doesn't require acid into it.

While I am a new sponsor to GBO forums, I have been a sponsor to RFC (http://www.rimfirecentral.com) forums since late 2002, and it has drawn attention there, and a post or two here of the noise there.

It has also seen rave reviews over the years on many forums, and a few website gun reviews, including by Stephen Camp at http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com (Steve handguns), under Moly Fusion Review. The first forum review still archived today being thefiringline.com (a small group of reviewers thumbs-up) in 2000-2001, and a second springing from that maid it onto czforums.com (handgun review, though).

While I am very convinced making the barrelt bullet proof simply and inexpensively is the 6th most important thing ever to be developed for gun barrels - and even better and more important than the development of chrome plating and Stainless Steel, there are many people who back this up, as little known as it is.

It also can make the throat of a barrel wear resistant, and heat-reflective, and a treated gun barrel that has been treated a few times and superficially retreated every half or so the normal life of the throat should last multiple times longer, not even just 10, 20, or 30% longer.

Treating a gun barrel is the better way to go from a mechanical engineering point of view, in my opinion, and more versatile, and simpler, too, since Moly Fusion(tm) exists for the purpose of doing that, but that is not all it does.

In any case, this is for one the purposes Moly Fusion is available at full strength. And this is my opinion, of course.

[Steve P]

My buddy cleans the 22 cases in hot soapy water, then runs them thru the jacket maker.  I get the brass jackets and anneal them in my oven.  We are both shooting them in TC .22 hornets with VV3n37 powder at about 1600 fps.  Our barrels look totally clean even after shooting several hundred rounds.  

Maybe you are pushing this type of bullet a little too fast?

Steve  

[pogo]

Not very fast in my case.  I think I settled on 2950 FPS with maybe 58 grain bullets.

With all due respect to techshooter, I will try out the #9 shot and graphite as I have the stuff already.