jh45gun

[Digger]

jh45gun, for your perusal. Fill out the ballistic chart for your arrow and it all comes up underneath.

http://home.att.net/~sajackson/ballistics.html

Digger

[jh45gun]

Thanks Digger but I have no idea what that specs were for my bow arrows. I could not figure out on the chart how to convert the arrow size numbers either. Nor do I know what speed my bow shot them. So I guess the chart would not help me  much I retired my bow when I went to the xbow. I do know that it did not drop as much as the xbow does but I guess some will never believe that.

[jsteele]

FIRST AND FOREMOST - jh45gun, we can start a new thread in pot belly stove if you want to avoid further trouble with the law.

But it is important that you understand the physics, and not just swallow the kool-aid you've been given.

Digger -  excellent resource.  I was going to try to send him there myself.

Go to the Jackson website and Calculate and learn, jh45gun.  Do not blindly believe all that you have been told.  I will give you the numbers you need to run.  Its as simple as entering the numbers and hitting the calculate button.

Fletching length – 4”, probably

Select vanes or feathers

Fletching height - .75”

Shaft diameter = .344”  (the diameter equivalent of a 2216 or 2219 shaft)

Shaft length – 16” (you said you are 16”, but leave everything else and vary shaft length from 16 to 20 to 22 to 30”)

Arrow speed – use something reasonable, like 300fps for a crossbow.  The 225 you posted earlier is more sandbagging then I see at my golf club’s member-guest.


Arrow weight – use 400 or 420 gr.

Now keep everything the same except arrow length.  Try a 30" arrow and your 16" bolt.

Realize that for every action of the bow or crossbow arrow (Carbon, smaller diameter, variable fletching length) the other could be countered to be the equivalent.  We're trying to keep the arrow and bolt as similar as possible, for the time being, to understand the impact of the primary variables.

What did you find?  Nothing.  Arrow length is nearly irrelevant in the equation. Arrow weight and especially launch velocity drive the ballistics.

Which means EXACTLY what I told you earlier.  Given a similar launch velocity and arrow weight, xbows do NOT drop more than compounds.

Now comes the hard swallow.  Look in the cabelas catalog.  Crossbow velocity averages 320 fps, with a 420 gr arrow.  Bows average about 305 IBO, which means they are shooting a 350 gr arrow (which almost noone hunts with.)  If you do the math to get the bow to a 400 gr arrow, the launch velocity drops to 270 fps.

Guess what that means.  (But you can now run the numbers and determine this yourself.)  Yup – the average crossbow shoots flatter than the average bow.  Science is victorious over gut instinct again.  And your precious talking point has been vanquished.

[jh45gun]

I think you are manipulating the numbers to get me to pic a set of numbers that agree to your arguement. I said my xbow shoots at  225 FPS so why would I pick a faster speed if I do not use that. I am sure there are variances in all of these charts. I WILL AGREE at a given distance say of 20 yards the xbow will shoot flatter I do not disagree with that what I do disagree with is that what your saying at 40 yards. The xbow bolt will drop more than a longer heavier arrow will. Greybeard hit it on the head with his last post before he locked the other post. Heavy bullets act the same. We do not have to discuss this further as you will never believe it. All I can tlell you is I believe my eyes and how the arrows act while shooting. All the numbers in the world on paper will not refute that fact. The main thing is the faster the bow or xbow the flatter BOTH will shoot I do not disagree with that either. Both will drop at longer distances I agree with that too. I will still say the xbow due to the bolt lenth will drop faster as it does not have the kinetic energy a longer arrow does. Kinetic Energy fits in the picture also.  We are also talking apples and oranges here because the chart goes from 0 to 100 yards with no zero say at 20 yards like the crossbow chart does. So we would need a chart that starts at a 20 yard 0 for the bow to be equal with the xbow chart.  You want to continue at the pot bellied stove go for it I will be there. I know where your trying to go with the charts and thats fine but like BIll said its different in the real world. I know what my eyes show me and from shooting a bow for over 40 years and now a xbow for 3 I can see the difference. Maybe a different xbow would make a difference but I read a article that some one else posted on the web and he said with his xbow the drop was excessive too. Bottom line is it really does not matter as long as you have multiple pins or a scope or red dot with multiple settings to compensate for it. I know both systems the arrows drop that is a given but how much and for each system is different. Jim

[jh45gun]

Borrowed this from the Excaliber site most of these guys were shooting bows long before xbows or shoot both.

Jh45gun,
I think the difference is in the mass of the arrow. My bolts weigh 400 Gr. and my 2315 arrows (my light arrows) weigh 600 Gr. The 2219 arrows for big critters weigh 650 Gr.

The heaver arrows have more energy stored in their mass. The two flying at similar velocities the heaver projectile will drop less at a given moderate distance. Gravity acts on both but the heaver projectile will sustain its velocity. A mass in motion will tend to stay in motion. Wind resistance is not as much of a factor as you would think. They would be very similar. The profiles are almost the same and the velocity is not any where near supersonic when the wind resistance and shock wave would be a major factor.

This would seem to suggest that a longbow or compound with a heavy arrow has the advantage at longer range over a short-range weapon like a crossbow. This would explain the effectiveness of Howard Hill and Fred Bear being able to shoot 40 to 60 yds. at big game, with heavy arrows.

THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY THIS GUY MAYBE SAID IT BETTER. IT IS ALSO WHAT GB SUGGESTED. I do not think we all can be mislead.  :grin:

[dukkillr]

I found all of the same sources and sent a PM that said the same thing... I also got the same physics-be-damned answer.  I suggest that some people still believe Elvis is alive and the world is flat.  I also suggest that these threads be put somewhere else so they don't get locked.

[jsteele]

I'll start a thread in the pot - bellied stove forum.

I hope you guys join me there and continue the discussion - it should be interesting.

[jh45gun]

Well guys it has been said according to Physics bumble bees should not be able to fly but they do pretty well don't they.

[jsteele]

It has never been said that physics cannot describe the flight of a projectile.

Read and learn - don't be so narrow minded.

[jh45gun]

Since when is a bee a projectile?? It sure puts a dent in your physics though don't it.

 Just because I disgagree with you does not make me a dummy I bet  I read more books in a year than you do by a long shot.  You like math fine it is not my favorite subject so I will trust you on what physics says on paper but as it has been pointed out to you lots of variables in the real world.  I have seen it snow in June and rain in Jan when it should not be but it happens just as there are too many variables in this arrow discussion that puts a dent in your physics. I trust what my eyes tell me.  I still say and so do a lot of other  xbow shooters that bolts drop more and are more of a short range weapon than bows are to a point as they both are short range weapons.  That arguement does not bother me as  much as I really do not care what you think about that but your ME only during archery season attitude sucks!

[jsteele]

Well

we can agree that they are both fairly short range weapons.

We will have to agree to disagree on which (as a category, not an individual weapon) outperforms the other.

I think your ME TOO during bowseason attitude stinks, as well.  You know what's next, right?  Handgunners will say "me too!" Muzzleloaders will say "me too!"

There is alreadya huge amount of message board traffic about removing any special season.  A growing number of folks want a universal season, the ultimate in choice, One deer season and anyone can choose what weapon they choose to hunt with.

I fail to see how any of that will help the sport of bowhunting, or help crossbowhunting either.

[jh45gun]

On the universal season I agree but you never know what will happen down the line do you.  I like the separate seasons for archery, gun and muzzle loading. Down the line though who knows what they may do. That why it is more important to fight that than infighing about xbows or bows or inlines vs sidelocks ect.

[jsteele]

But you're being inconsistent.

A .357 magnum handgun has the same range limitations as a crossbow.  Why not let them into archery season?

A flintlock with round balls has roughly the same range - why not let them in?

Non-rifled slug guns have roughly the same range as a crossbow - why not let them in?

What's that you say?  They're different, they use gunpowder, they aren't a bow?

Fair enough.  But while your crossbow doesn't use gunpowder, its different too.  Shouler it like a gun, aim it like a gun, shoot it like a gun.

Its not a bow.  Let's keep bow season for bows.

[jh45gun]

But you're being inconsistent.

A .357 magnum handgun has the same range limitations as a crossbow.  Why not let them into archery season?

A flintlock with round balls has roughly the same range - why not let them in?

Non-rifled slug guns have roughly the same range as a crossbow - why not let them in?

What's that you say?  They're different, they use gunpowder, they aren't a bow?

Fair enough.  But while your crossbow doesn't use gunpowder, its different too.  Shouler it like a gun, aim it like a gun, shoot it like a gun.

Its not a bow.  Let's keep bow season for bows.

I am good with a Revolver at least to 75 yards maybe a 100 with practice I can stretch that with my 308 Encore Pistol to 150 at least comfortablely I would not dream of shooting a crossbow at game over 40 and 35 is more like it.

Muzzle loaders with balls do not have a flinter but my ball shooter side lock 54 cal I feel good at a 100 I would not think of a crossbow at these ranges either.

Slug guns good for 75 to a  100 yards  with practice and a brand of slugs your smooth bore likes are you one of these folks that lie about xbows saying they are good for a 100??


 Yea it shoulders like a gun but that is where the simularitys end while it looks like you aim it like a gun its rainbow trajectory does not make that possible at all ranges unless you use a sight that allows you allow for that and because of the short range nature it is not like shooting a gun. Aim like a gun if we wanted to extend that arguement then we could put vertical bow sights into the arguement. Using a peep sight and a post? sounds like a sighting arrangement for a gun to me. A scope with a red dot or crosshairs? Sounds like a gun sight to me? Nope not on a rifle but it sure would apply to a pistol and as you put that as your first choice you hold a bow out extended just as you would a handgun. Lazer on a bow gee just like a gun.