Author Topic: Easy Gap Fix  (Read 894 times)

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Offline Fred M

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Easy Gap Fix
« on: August 17, 2005, 05:42:38 PM »
Easy Gap Fix On Standing Breech.

When I noticed a loss in accuracy in my 257Roberts Handi, I found a 0.003" gap in the standing breech I was not pleased. The rifle was never subjected to max pressure loads. But the seat was very poorly machined, MAYBY accounting for the gap? When a Handi develops a gap in the breech it will also at the same time the loose forearm contact with the action. This contact is as important as a tight breech, because it creates unwanted vibrations.

Of course we all know about the several available fixes. Like gluing in a shim or building up the hinge pin seat with weld. I found the glue in shim is very unsatisfactory. Build up with weld works well but is very involved.

When you look at the hinge pin from the rear you will see two shiny marks one each side with no bearing in the 0.312"wide hole in the underlug. The unsupported center gap became more foods for thought. The hole reduces the bearing surface of 0.361 sq/in by the considerable amount of 26%.

The open end in the underlug is a manufacturing short cut. Instead of a solid steel bock for the hinge pin seat and a stop for the ejector spring a simple split pin is installed for the stop. This pin is not needed to remove the spring also it can be. Installation of the spring and ejector is much easier from the breech end.

The fix I came up with kills to birds with one stone, one it eliminates the gap and two, improves the hinge pin-bearing surface by 26%.

Remove the ejector and the spring from the breech end. Make a stick of wood .300x.240 to fit the hole 4" long. Don't remove the spring stop pin.  Clean the hole in the hinge pin seat with sand paper or a needle file and dimple the sides with a sharp punch up to the ejector stop pin and dimple the radiused seat.  This will make small craters for a mechanical bond of the Steel Putty. Wash and wipe the hole and the hinge seat with acetone.

With a Q-tip thinly prime the hole with 51CURE or West System 5-1 epoxy. Wax the wood stick and have it in place against the spring pin to prevent epoxy to get into the spring race, fill the hole with Devcon Steel Putty and finish flush with the seat radius. Tap the wood stick to flush the Steel putty in place and avoid overfilling the hole. Let this set up solid.

Once solid apply primer to the hinge seat and apply a thin layer of Devcon Steel Putty and apply thin coat of STP or paste wax for release to the hinge pin. Carefully install the barrel and compress the Devcon Steel Putty. Tap action in place until the latch will lock solid. I would think that this should take care of a gap up to six thousands or more?

The back thrust against the standing breech for cartridge like a 243 or 25-06 is about 7500psi on a   0.173sq/in case head. The effective thrust area is 0.1246 sq/in. The above load is transferred to the hinge pin , which has more than twice the aria at 0.361 sq/in when the hole is filled in.  Always use a good grease to lube the hinge pin and seat after the Devcon Epoxy steel is cured. Allow one week to cure, for sure.

One problem with a gap is, the loose barrel will add impact to the hinge pin each time the rifle is fired. To demonstrate take a 50lbs hammer and lay it on a 3/8 pin nothing will happen. Take the same hammer and drop it a foot and you will have a dint in the pin. The more gap the more impact. My Handi action developed a 0.003" after about 160 rounds.

Of course a gap will also place the latch in various places on the latch seat. This causes vertical stringing. The Devcon Steel Putty may in time compress but can be fixed easy by another thin layer of Devcon Steel Putty.  Devcon Steel Putty has a 8400psi compressive strength more than enough to keep things tight. I have done my 257 Roberts in a trial fashion as above. The action now locks up tight as a vault with no gap and 20 warm loads with 100 gr bullets have shown no signs of compression. Which is very encouraging because the rifles good accuracy was restored.

You could make you own putty using West System 5:1 epoxy and atomized steel or Tungsten from Brownell. Devcon Putty is also available form Brownell page 253 cat # 57.

How long will it stay tight, I don't know, more shooting will tell.  From what I have seen it will stay a while. The Steel Putty is very hard and compression at the above rate would be very minimal.

Devcon Steel Putty is also available from industrial suppliers. Do not use 1:1 Devcon Epoxy Steel.

Fred M.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline quickdtoo

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Easy Gap Fix
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2005, 05:52:01 PM »
Sounds promising Fred!!! How does JB Weld compare in strength to the Devcon steel putty, just out of curiosity??

Thanks,

Tim

EDIT: I found part of the answer, it doesn't say what the compressive strength is, though....???

http://jbweld.net/products/jbweld.php

And is this the right stuff??

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=5808
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Offline myarmor

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Easy Gap Fix
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2005, 05:55:09 PM »
Fred. You are a very specific and detailed person :grin: . Thanks for the post.

Offline handirifle

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Easy Gap Fix
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2005, 07:01:34 PM »
Nice going Fred, hated to hear when that beauty started losing accuracy, after all that work.  NEF ought to know where to look if they ever want to re-engineer their receiver.
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Offline Fred M

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Easy Gap Fix
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2005, 07:09:01 PM »
Quick.

J-B weld is mostly an adhesive and very strong, don't know what it's compressive strength is. We need at least 8 kpsi. One thing about using epoxy type materials they are easy to remove with a bit of heat like a Benzomatic torch, and Devcon Steel is no exception.

Another thing about J-B weld it is a 1:1 mix and is really to soft to provide
resistance enough to force the barrel against the standing breech. Devcon Steel is not liquid. I played around with it and made up a small sample and let it sit for an hour and then compress it this is even better for a really tight fit. As I said the primer is needed to get it to stick. Using the Tungsten powder with this epoxy would perhaps double the strength to 17Kpsi????

Here is a question. With nearly solid steel particles held together in an epoxy matrix. How much could you compress a 0.005" layer. I don't know but I wont guess. The specs say 8400 psi compressive strength and we are subjecting it with 7500 psi or less. But it is point loaded That is the unknown. So there is no harm in shooting the gun until the stuff fails after a while and the while is also unknown

The West System Epoxy or the 51CURE si on of the hardest and toughest epoxy I know. I used it to build an 18oz light Varmint Benchrest stock made from Balsa wood 3/16" boards laminated with carbon fiber. The strength of this lay up is simply incredible.

Me thinks it works great. There is some German proverb about the use of putty. Its use is not something a good Journey man should entertain, but the master will frequently make use of it.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Mac11700

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Easy Gap Fix
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2005, 07:13:50 PM »
Good info Fred...and a sure fire way to improve the strenght of the action...were now 1 step closer to being as strong as an Encore :cry:

Keep up the good work...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Fred M

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Easy Gap Fix
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2005, 07:46:40 PM »
Mac.

The Devcon Steel will not improve the strength of the action, but will reduce the the liberal tolerances employed and or created. Bedding the action into the well and removing the side play from the underlug is what can be done with it. Reducing the amplitude of vibrations is what we are after and turn a 2" gun into a consistent 1" shooter.

Yes I could easy redesign the action without spending a whole lot of money. Like apiece of steel fused into the underlug channel to provide a solid larger hinge pin seat and a 1/16" larger pin would not break the company. The basic design is excelent but the ruddy shortcuts are something else.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Mac11700

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Easy Gap Fix
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2005, 07:50:42 PM »
Aww shucks Fred...you know what I meant :oops:

Good info though..enough so...I added it to the FAQ's as well as Quicks question and your reply...

Mac
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Offline myarmor

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Easy Gap Fix
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2005, 02:43:10 AM »
Fred, are you going to put this on your website?
 If so a step by step with pictures would be awesome, and even easier to follow. -not to mention would help a slow man, such as myself :)
You got some good information there.

Offline ONE HOLE 4570

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« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2005, 04:13:13 AM »
Ditto with the pics if possible helps those of us who are less mechanical inclined :oops:
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Offline Fred M

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Easy Gap Fix
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2005, 04:58:03 AM »
Yes I am going to put it on my web site. I was just going to wait until I do some more shooting  with the rifle to see if anything changes.

Pictures is a problem, my macro lens on my 35mm reflex is a dog to set up and I have not found a digital that suits me. There is not really much to it. I would have to do my 223 which does not need it but I will try to add a picture or two.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline myarmor

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Easy Gap Fix
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2005, 07:53:44 AM »
Need a project????
 :) Want to fix my little gap on my 44Mag :)

Offline Fred M

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Easy Gap Fix
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2005, 10:30:50 AM »
Quick.

The putty I have is called

Devcon Plastic Steel Putty (A) stock# 10110

It says for industrial use only The mix is 2.5 Steel Putty and 1 part hardener by volume. 1 lbs= 11.9 cub/inches.

By weight 9 parts Steel putty to 1 part hardener. When mixed it is like modeling clay. Soft stuff wont be any good.

Best to find out from Brownell if theirs is the same stuff. Mine is quite old at least 15 years, seems to have indefinite shelve life. I have done a million jobs with since. One lbs will last forever.

Mac.
Here is the URL, you can post it if you like

http://www.angelfire.com/ma/ZERMEL/gap.html
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2005, 11:57:11 AM »
Thanks Fred!! :wink:   That's the same part # as the container in the pic at Brownells's......too bad they don't sell it in a smaller container!!! 1lb will last for years for several of us!!!
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Ricci Price

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Easy Gap Fix
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2005, 01:22:33 PM »
Ol Fred comes through again, I chose to weld mine up and it is a very invovled project, and when I welded it I welded it solid (filled in the hole), and I also welded the sides of the under lug where it meets the barrel near the recess. I think they leave those little edges for two reasons, they don't want to melt those two ears near the end of the lug during the welding process, and also to give the under lug some vertical play (not good) I think this just adds to the wipping action of the rifle, really bad in the high pressure calibers. I wander if the new extractor barrels have the milled "hole" in the recess? Good job Fred!!!!

Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2005, 01:38:46 PM »
They haven't changed anything that I can see other than the ejector to extractor mechanism..... :(

"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Fred M

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Easy Gap Fix
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2005, 02:15:17 PM »
Quick.

Five guys could split a can. That would make it dirt cheap 3oz a piece will do god nows how many lugs. Just divi it up in ten little containers. With the mail it make it 10 bucks a piece.

Rici.

I talked to my machinist friend and we had decided to cut off the lug at the spring pin and make a new hardened piece and tig weld it in place.

Open the pin hole to 7/16" and mill a new seat with 7/16 end mill.  Make a new 7/16" H.S hardened pin. Already made the draw and worked up the mill set up. Not much to that either. But the putty got that beat all to h---.
You have to see how my action closes up tight, even when it was new it was not better.

Well I got to get off the computer, I have the home defence dept. up in arms about renovating three bed rooms. Yuck about painting. :evil:  :evil:
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Ricci Price

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Easy Gap Fix
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2005, 03:04:58 PM »
Now I feel sorry for Fred, that painting crap .....I know all about it. My freind brought me his gun the other day he said "it wont eject the hull and it ain't shootin straight." So I told him I would look at it (25-06 ultra!!!! oh no here we go again) tore it down, cleaned, trigger job, polished the chamber and shimmed the lug went from 6" verticle string to 1 3/8" clover, and shot it 20 or so time with no hung cases, now I thinking about "devconing" this thing. I don't think I want to weld another one. He also gave me some factory hornady 117 grain bullets to try with it, man those things are hot (sore shoulder), I ended up loading some 100 grainers for it, it settled it down nicely.

Offline 218Bee

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Easy Gap Fix
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2005, 03:48:01 PM »
Fred M.,

Outstanding! I've had a devil of a time getting my 30-06 shimmed in.

This sounds like the ticket.  

Rick
An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
-- Robert A. Heinlein

Offline Fred M

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Easy Gap Fix
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2005, 07:26:16 PM »
myarmor.

I have made up a new web page with a step by step description and a more complete write up. It should be easy enough to follow. Quick put
the URL is on the FAQ section. Thanks Quick. But here is the URL again.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma/ZERMEL/gap.html
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline myarmor

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Easy Gap Fix
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2005, 07:46:02 PM »
Fred thanks man. I can use it.