deer tallow - at the range

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Well I fired up the ol' .54 Virginia Saturday.

Just working on filing the front sight to a proper height.

At 40 meters it shot a clover leaf with 100 gr. Swiss FFg, and deer tallow smeared on the patch.  I have to swab with a spit-moistened patche 'tween each shot.  Grouped at POA.

At same distance it shot roughly 1 1/2" group with 100 gr. Swiss FFg and a deer tallow grease cookie.  NO SWABBING BETWEEN SHOTS.  Ball rammed down very smoothly for 5 shots.  Group was low.

Without cleaning or swabbing, I shot another 5 with a grease cookie.  This time with 110 gr Swiss FFg.  Group moved up to POA, but spread out to >2".

The balls I was using for the latter two groups were wrinkly and poorly cast.  I know some folks claim this won't make a difference, but I'll repeat those two shots with sorted balls to see if the group size can't be shrunk and then I'll try for a 100 yard zero.

Note that using a grease cookie eliminated the need to swab.  If accuracy can be maintained, this is the way to go, I'm convinced.

Here's how I make it practical.  I make a loading block out of a piece of hardwood that is 3/4" thick.  Then I use a strip of lubed patch material and push the balls into the holes, flush.  I cut the patches off flush with the block.  When the block is full, I flip it over and fill the backsides with deer tallow flush to the block face.  

To load I just pour the powder measure downbore, thump the gun, hold the block over the muzzle with a ball aligned properly, grease-cookie-side-down.  I push the grease cookie and patched ball into the muzzle.  Then ram it home.  Prime, and shoot.

I carry a small block with 6 pre-made rounds while hunting.  Since deer season is in November, the grease cookie stays put because it's cold and hard.  Which is another benefit of deer tallow.  Of all the animal fats, this seems to have the highest melting point, which makes it good for summer use.

[lostid]

What are you trying to say Black Jaque?

 That your .54 does shoot? I mean you just said you swab and don't swab, use a button and don't use a button, change powder charge, and use un-winkley un-poorly cast ball for some comparison and winkled-poorly cast ball for other comparison, depending weather it's hot or cold outside,,
,oh and you did say you use spit.(sure,that'll help a new shooter,,)
(deer tallow is good)

[dlemaster]

Do you put something over the cookies in the loading block to keep the grease from picking up dirt and grit while your hunting?
Just wondering.

Regards, Dave

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

dlemaster,

Nope, I leave it in my shooting bag.  I haven't noticed it picking up excessive amounts of dirt & grit.  No more than if I just had a greased patch in a loading block.  And if there is quite a bit, I just run a fingernail over it to scrape off the grit.


Lostid,

What are you trying to say Black Jaque?

Nothin' much.  Just offering my experiences to those who might find it interesting.

Yes my .54 shoots.  But what I am pursuing is the holy grail in muzzle loading -  a highly accurate load that starts without a short starter, is potent enough for large game, flat shooting to 100 yards, doesn't require swabbing between shots, and won't contaminate the powder charge if left in the bore for a long time, and can be had with simple cheap materials.

I didn't do a perfectly scientific study for comparison.  Sometimes I don't have that luxury.  If I cast a batch of wrinkly balls, I can either throw 'em back in the pot or use 'em.  If I go to the range and that's the batch of balls I have to work with then that's what I've got to work with.  

What I DO know is that deer tallow is capable of producing excellent groups in my gun.  I ALSO know that a grease "button" will eliminate the need for swabbing.  

What I do not know yet is if the grease button is capable of producing the equivalent accuracy as no grease button/swabbing 'tween shots.  So I've got more work to do to see if I can "make the grease buttons work".

I jumped up to 110 grains of powder because the groups were lower when I switched to grease cookies.  Thinking the velocity might be slower, I increased the powder charge.  The POI jumped up, but the group spread out.  But since I shoot at a range, not a science lab, I'm not sure if the wrinkly balls caused the group to spread or if it's the load in general.  Does that help?

[lostid]

Does that help?

Yup. Your working really hard (almost too hard) to find the grail alright,,I did that too, fer years. It's about the variables man,,if you want that perfect load,,just change one thing at a tyme :grin:

 Have you Black Jacque ever seen the "secret papers" ? The blackpowder muzzle loading accuracy system?

[ButlerFord45]

:-D Ah! Yes! The "Secret Papers"!!   The stuff you already know, just put together  into a neat package.  I'd highly recommend them though. Either new shooter or old hand can get something useful out of them.  I had been having a bit of luck with the "dry lube" but economics have forced a powder change so I'm going to have to start all over again but what the heck, that just means I'm going to have to shoot some more.

[WD45]

SSSHHHHHHHHH... quiet..
Those papers are secret : :wink:

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

It's about the variables man,,if you want that perfect load,,just change one thing at a tyme

Like I said, I do my shooting at a rifle range, not a science lab.  That means I'm forced to deal with the materials I have on hand.  If all that's left is wrinkly roundballs, then that's what I shoot.

No, I haven't seen the secret papers, you guys have been holding out on me.

[Ramrod]

Yes my .54 shoots.  But what I am pursuing is the holy grail in muzzle loading -  a highly accurate load that starts without a short starter, is potent enough for large game, flat shooting to 100 yards, doesn't require swabbing between shots, and won't contaminate the powder charge if left in the bore for a long time, and can be had with simple cheap materials.

You are on a most worthy quest! Take a look at "muzzle coning" if you want to loose that short starter. Truth is, when it comes to roundball rifles, there are no examples of antique bullet starters! Reason being, that all loads went down with the ramrod, back in the old days.
Those Dutch Shoultz "secret papers" others are talking about, will help you beat the pants off the usuall yokel at a "ronny-voo", but are not what you are looking for. I think I have posted this statement before...
There is a huge difference between what works for target shooters, and what works for hunters. Muzzleloaders, or modern guns, makes no difference.

[lostid]

No, I haven't seen the secret papers, you guys have been holding out on me.

OK. check your pm's

[lostid]

There is a huge difference between what works for target shooters, and what works for hunters. Muzzleloaders, or modern guns, makes no difference.

Oh I'll take issue with that statement Ramrod!  I'll agree, hunting is different than target shooting, it involves "hunt" aka sport. Meat shooting is different than hunting,,that involves filling the freezer. "If it's brown it's down syndrome"

 I guess I'm from a different school,, I believe a Hunter should not go afield if he cain't hit his target. Yet wallymart sells a bubblepack blackpowder rifle each year just before deer season for 199.99. Go figure.
 Do ya need a quick second shot!?  why? did the hunter miss his target?

voo's ain't all paper man. they make ya duck,shoot into the sun,shoot behind your back, make ya shoot cross arm,,make ya kneel,load on your back,shoot under or over an object,,shoot at swinging targets or clay rabbit's and more. Development of/and confidence in those kind of shooting skills only lends the hunter the knowledge and proficiency of his firearm he need's,

after all, the shooting part is the end of the "hunt"

[dlemaster]

Ramrod
I don't wish to be cantankerous but I think there are a couple of short starters illustrated in Madison Grant's "The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch"
I don't have my copy right in front of me, but toward the back of the book there are several pictures of the contents from hunting pouches and I think they include a couple of short starters. There is also an antler handled knife illustrated that has a short tine left on the handle that was used as a short starter.

Regards, Dave

[Ramrod]

dlemaster, maybe you have a pic of an old short starter, but I have never seen one, nor any reference to one being used in old writings. I believe they were a later invention for the target range.

lostid, if you never had to shoot an animal more than once, you are either the worlds greatest shot, or just have not shot many animals.
And I would like to see a fella in the woods swabbing between shots, or using a waterbased lube when the mercury is hovering around zero, which it does frequently during our muzzleloader season. A good hunting load may spend days in the rifle before being fired. The reqirements of the field are just alot different than the requirements of the range.

[lostid]

na, it's not even that ramrod.
 I enjoy the sport of the hunt, I have not shot at game many times, just to enjoy their spirit. The "hunt" sometime brings more satisfaction than the harvest. Too be there and watch them walk away,,as in pass,,.

I'm far from the worlds best shot,, but I'll not pull the trigger if it don't count.. an I live in Minnesota! And I know all about the "cambin" part and "day's" in the woods.. That's why I'm sayin' ya oughta be able to hit your target afore ya go in the woods!

didn't the guy just say ya gotta shoot a deer twice?? a deer? twice? huh? and then we talk about "accuracy" hhmmm,,,,,sheesch,

[lostid]

The reqirements of the field are just alot different than the requirements of the range.

 Whaa?

[lostid]

lostid, if you never had to shoot an animal more than once

 well. maybe you need a little more time on the range...... :-D

[Ramrod]

lostid, I have seen squirrells that needed to be shot twice. Once again, you have proved that range shooting bears little resemblence to the real world.

[lostid]

lostid, I have seen squirrells that needed to be shot twice.[/qu

ok,you win, next time I step on a squirrelles neck/chest,,I'll shoot it again.

 But I'll swab the bore,,just once, afore I reload ta make the killin shot!

[dodd3]

lostid no were ya coming from.bin hunting with guys who were using mag cal rifles on wild goats and needed a second shot me one shot kill on wild goats.they ask ho come you can drop them with one shot with that smoke pole ,i say simple put the  bullet in the kill zone,they think cos they got a magnum they can hit it anywhere.    
bernie  :grin:

[roundball]

One shot.

Like a lot, I grew through bb guns/.22's, .0-30s', .30-06's, .264 WinMag, .35Rems, all with huge Leupold scopes, etc...filled my tags and thought I was a deer hunter.  Then got into muzzleloading and haven't touched the rest in years...using nothing but Flintlocks, iron sights, and patched balls now.

Big scopes and long range flat shooting rifles did that to me...I would sit over a beanfield or a powerline and shoot deer as far away as 250-300 yards... nothing to it with that equipment...they couldn't see me, they couldn't smell me, they couldn't hear me, etc...but if I could see them, they were dead....I wasn't a hunter, I was a shooter.

Once I set the big scoped high power rifles aside for sidelock muzzleloaders and couldn't hunt that way anymore, I realized I wasn't quite the deer hunter that I thought I was and had to completely, really learn how to hunt deer...had to find them, figure out where they went, how they got there, get in close with them, etc.

Muzzleloaders made me a deer hunter, and Flintlocks with iron sights have made me a far better shot than I was...a scope makes it too easy...using iron sights under various woods / lighting conditions forces good shooting techniques...and I shoot / practice with Flintlocks at the range almost every weekend year round.

With CF rifles, I always used to fill the magazines with as many cartiridges as they would hold, so I'd be sure to have plenty if I had to keep shooting...never needed five shells but by golly they were there just in case.  But now, deer hunting with a flintlock (or any muzzleloader) the whole mentality of the hunt is one shot...period.  And my personal feeling is that I've failed if I don't make it precise enough to put the deer down in it's tracks or at least within sight of my stand.

After the shot, I don't reach for some sort of speedloader and jack in another load...I take a good 10 minutes and completely clean, dry, lube the bore & flint lock assembly, then reload and quietly go fetch the deer.  I won't take a shot unless I know without a doubt I am going to kill that deer...I wait for clearance, I wait for angle, I'll whistle stop a deer so it's a standing shot, and I go for the heart.

I find an active trail coming out of an overgrown clearcut or thicket, or a heavily used trail crossing a ditch down in a bottom somewhere...I set up 40-50yds off to the side and let them come to me.  Not as interesting as still hunting but far more productive for me...during the rut last year I got two bucks 30 minutes apart right at first light as they were headed back to bed in an overgrown clearcut area...40-50yd shots.

Most enjoyable hunting experience for me any more is to take a buck up close with a Flintlock...I lay that rifle back down across my lap, smoke curling up out of the vent, a buck in the leaves 50yds out, and I get a feeling like: "this is how the settlers did it back in the day...a real piece of flint, real black powder, and a patched lead ball"

[irndan]

Amen to that roundball. Nothing like sitting in a stand (or on the ground for that matter) after you have scouted for the year and watch that deer get closer and closer. The heart starts to pound so loud you can hear it in your ears. You wonder how close will he get ? Am I going to be able to get my rilfe up without him/her seeing me? Then the shot, trying to look through the smoke to see if it dropped or which direction it is going. Listening for the sound of leaves being trampled then the sound of brush being crushed then.... silence. I'll take that over a 200yd. shot anyday

[roundball]

Then the shot, trying to look through the smoke to see if it dropped or which direction it is going. Listening for the sound of leaves being trampled then the sound of brush being crushed then.... silence.

You got it...happened one day last year...right at first light in a heavy damp ground fog laying through the trees...beautiful actually...as visibility improved a little in the gray light, I realized a buck was standing 50-60yds out in front of me looking off through the woods at something...I eased the rifle up and shot him in the heart...the heavy still wet air held that cloud of smoke in place forever...couldn't see and I never heard any movement noise..figured he'd gone down right there.

So I climbed down, took my time and quietly cleaned, dried, lubed, and reloaded the .45 flinter, then eased out to drag him back...but he wasn't there, couldn't find any blood, etc...so on a hunch that he doubled back from the way he came, I went looking in the opposite direction he'd been facing, and sure enough, found him piled up 25-35 steps back that way...not many things better to me than hunting deer & squirrels with a flintlock
 :wink:

[lostid]

One shot.

thank you friend  

[propredator]

Roundball i do enjoy your flintlock hunting storys.I can hardley wait for season to get here.I have never hunted with my flinter yet but in september im going after bushytails ,hopefully by the end of january i will have some good memorys to reflect back on and maybe a freezer full of venison.

[roundball]

Roundball i do enjoy your flintlock hunting storys.I can hardley wait for season to get here.I have never hunted with my flinter yet but in september im going after bushytails ,hopefully by the end of january i will have some good memorys to reflect back on and maybe a freezer full of venison.

This is the edge of a thick area like I hunt...never had much luck hunting wide open woods except for seeing young inexperienced bucks...if you can find nasty tight thickets like this with well used trails going in and out of it, it's a gold mine...you can only hunt it from the leeward side...if you set up with the breeze drifting your scent into it, they'll slip out the back side and set up in another bedding area somewhere else...

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Well I guess I'm with the rest of the crowd - I only take the perfectest shots.  It's just that after the shot I occasionally learn that the shot wasn't so perfect after all.

Once I found a small piece of rusted wire with a fresh break and lead streaks.  The ball was deflected into the ground a few feet beyond.  Now how was I supposed to see a 1/8" rusty wire about 35 yards from me, and against a brown furry background?

In some areas of Wisconsin, you just don't have the luxury of a "clear" shot.  The brush can be so thick, that if you do happen to have an unobstructed shot, you likely can stab the animal with your knife.  It would have to be that close.

So in the field, things happen that you don't count on.  As a result the deer may not be fatally struck.  In one instance, I saw the deer lurch forward just as I touched off the shot, but before the pan lit up.  The ball struck her in the spine, about midway.  She lost use of her hind legs, but wasn't approachable with a knife, so I put another ball into her.

As for being able to hit your target before you go out in the woods - I can.  But how accurate is accurate enough?  As long as you're in-the-black?  Or do you have to be in the X-ring?

There are some loads that can put 'em all in the X-ring.  They may make fine target loads, but there are other factors that may cause me to pass on it as a hunting load.  I'll trade some accuracy in for velocity.  I'll also trade some in for ease of loading.  9-ring accuracy will suffice for deer.

[Ramrod]

There are some loads that can put 'em all in the X-ring.  They may make fine target loads, but there are other factors that may cause me to pass on it as a hunting load.  I'll trade some accuracy in for velocity.  I'll also trade some in for ease of loading.  9-ring accuracy will suffice for deer.

Very wise words, Black Jaque! This applies to all hunting, regardless of the weapon. It's the reason shotgunners don't take to the field with trap guns, and why so many centerfire rifle hunters can do just fine with a battered old .30-30, or a shotgun and slugs. The woods just ain't the same as the target range.
And about the earlier post about squirrels. If anyone has not seen a wounded tree rat hunker down tight to an overhead limb, he has not done much squirrel hunting. I don't step on them, I'm afraid of heights!

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

The woods just ain't the same as the target range.
And about the earlier post about squirrels. If anyone has not seen a wounded tree rat hunker down tight to an overhead limb, he has not done much squirrel hunting. I don't step on them, I'm afraid of heights!

Yep.  I've seen that happen.  Or worse, the dang thing is plumb dead but gets hung up in the crotch of a limb on its way down!  But that doesn't have much to do with accuracy or power.

[propredator]

roundball he is a nice one




 propredator/buckknife