.450 Marlin or 45-70

[CIG]

If you reload which would you go with, the .450 Marlin or 45-70 in a Marlin guide gun and why?  I think the reason for the .450 is for those that do not reload.  If you re-load is there any reason to go with the .450?  I assume the guns are the same?  I see the .450 costs more.

[KN]

I have one in 450 and there is no real benefit of one over the other if you reload. They are THUMPERS!!   KN

[victorcharlie]

The 45.70....for historical reasons if nothing more.........450 is a very new cartridge........I think I'll let it age for awhile.

[leoparddog]

I'd say that if you reload, you have no need for the 450 Marlin.  Its out there for kranks who want a hot load but don't reload.  

No major manufacturer (except CorBon & Buffalo Bore, but I don't consider them major/mainstream) really wants to sell +P 45/70 loads for liability reasons.  

Remington's and Winchester's lawyers are sure some dim bulb will drop a +P load into an old Sharps and blow their hand/face off.  Resulting in a large Lawsuit.

CorBon and Buffalo Bore do it, because Joe DimBulb can't walk into a Wally World and buy their stuff, like he can Remington or Winchester.  They put all kinds of warnings on their ammo and you have to order it or go to a gun store.

If you reload, and want a 1895 Marlin, go ahead and get the 45/70.  It will do what the 450 Marlin will do and will provide the flexibility of shooting the regular pressure loads.

I'm not sure, but I don't think anyone makes reduced 450 Marlin loads that compare to factory regular pressure 45/70. Which, if the case, would reduce the flexibility of that chambering.

[victorcharlie]

Leporddog......give the PMC 350 grain HA or +p+ a try........$18.45 for a box of 20..........350 grain hornidy at 2125 fps..........3100 ft.lbs......this is a very accurate hot load for the 45.70........I'd consider pmc a major ammunition manufacturer!

[Lawdog]

The one reason I picked the .450 Marlin over the .45-70 is the case on the .450 Marlin is a bit thicker where it counts than the .45-70.  Thus this aids the reloader with stronger cases.  This is the report straight from the technicians at Hornady so all you .45-70 fans call Hornady and flame them.  This is a good point to keep in mind when making your decision.  Lawdog
 

[TennesseeNuc]

CIG,
I reload and I prefer the 45-70.  If I'm caught short, I can find ammo anywhere.  I just don't see a need for the 450.
Best,
TnNuc

[EsoxLucius]

The one reason I picked the .450 Marlin over the .45-70 is the case on the .450 Marlin is a bit thicker where it counts than the .45-70. Thus this aids the reloader with stronger cases. This is the report straight from the technicians at Hornady so all you .45-70 fans call Hornady and flame them.

I don't intend to flame anyone.  Just provide some facts.  There is no practical difference between the old, "weak" 45-70 brass and the so-called modern, "thicker" 450 Marlin brass.  Sure, 450 Marlin brass is thicker at the base and web.  However, where the brass is worked the most is where it fails, and on both the 45-70 and 450 Marlin this area is about the same thickness.  The "thinnest" 45-70 brass is Winchester and it has been tested to 70,000 PSI without failure.  So, considering the fact that 450 Marlin brass will not last any longer than 45-70 brass, 450 Marlin brass extra strength is wasted on a 43,500 PSI operating pressure, 45-70 brass is not severely stressed at its operating pressure of 40,000 CUP, and 450 Marlin brass is more expensive than 45-70 brass, one can see that the brass issue is probably not a valid reason for getting the 450 Marlin over the 45-70 in the Marlin lever gun.

Now, chamber a short action Winchester M70 in the 450 Marlin and run it to 65,000 PSI and we have a whole different ball game.

[Lawdog]

EsoxLucius,

Just provide some facts.

As I stated in my earlier post the specifications came from the technicians at Hornady OVER the phone.  If you need the exact figures then I suggest you call Hornady and talk to the technicians there.  I have seen the results of case failure in the .45-70.  Sorry but give me the added protection of the stronger .450 Marlin case.

Now, chamber a short action Winchester M70 in the 450 Marlin and run it to 65,000 PSI and we have a whole different ball game.

Neither of my .450 Marlins are lever actions.  One is a Ruger No. 1 and the other is a standard length custom M70, that started out life as a .338 Win. Mag.  The reason for this is I load up to 500 gr. Barnes bullets(TSX now but originally the older X version) and the OAL of them is 3.09” which runs fits the standard length action and won’t fit the short action without modification.  A lever action .450 Marlin or .45-70 doesn’t fit my style of hunting.  Lawdog
 

[EsoxLucius]

For your application, you are right, there are advantages with 450 Marlin brass over 45-70 brass.  But the original question was about either in the Marlin "Guide Gun" and for that application there is no practical difference.
 
There are versions of the M70 short action that will accommodate a 3.1" COAL.

 

[Lawdog]

EsoxLucius,

There are versions of the M70 short action that will accommodate a 3.1" COAL.

Not the factory $2,000.00+ version that you can get from Winchester, which is the only one the Winchester offers.  The magazine won't allow cartridges that long.  I tried.  Lawdog
 

[EsoxLucius]

Agreed.  I was thinking more custom than what the Winchester factory offers.

[leoparddog]

Leporddog......give the PMC 350 grain HA or +p+ a try........$18.45 for a box of 20..........350 grain hornidy at 2125 fps..........3100 ft.lbs......this is a very accurate hot load for the 45.70........I'd consider pmc a major ammunition manufacturer!

I guess, my point got misunderstood.  I don't disagree with you VC, PMC is a major manufacturer, but you aren't going to walk into Wal Mart or Sports Authority, KMart or anywhere but a good sized gun store and buy a box of it 45-70+P or 450Marlin loads.  

Some of us folks live in rural areas and if you don't reload, the 45-70 is more available and more versatile.  If you do reload, see the first post, I don't think there is enough difference between the two to justify spending more on a 450Marlin Guide Gun

[victorcharlie]

Im not so sure about  the availability of either........Walmart had to order 45.70's for me......Standard Remington 405 grains.....Sporting goods manager said they didn't sell enough to stock them.  The big gun store in these parts, Benton shooters supply, doesn't stock any 45.70 ammo but can order the PMC, or what ever...........Walmart cannot order PMC.....I sent an email to PMC.......PMC replied they didn't do business the walmart way........I appreciate that.......
 
The problem with ordering them online is the shipping runs the price up.......
 
Reloading is the best idea for the 45.70

[EsoxLucius]

I guess I don't understand.  If you buy 5 boxes of PMC Silver 45-70 ammo from Sportsmans Guide it comes out to $20 a box delivered.  That's still cheaper than any other 45-70 ammo over the counter.

If you don't reload and you aren't buying 5 boxes of factory ammo, you ain't shootin' enough. JMHO

[Winter Hawk]

Well now, I'm just going from memory here, but I remember when the .450 Marlin came out it had the same balistics as hot handloads for the .45-70.  It was introduced for those folks who do not reload but still want a stout bear stopper type round.  For the reloader there was no advantage, and factory ammo cost a bunch higher than for the older round.  I believe this still holds true.

-WH-

[jh45gun]

Bottom line is it gives them a platform to sell more guns.

[victorcharlie]

If you buy 5 boxes of PMC Silver 45-70 ammo from Sportsmans Guide it comes out to $20 a box delivered.

REALLY?  Thanks, I'll have to give them another look!

[nomosendero]

Many good points have been brought out. I think if you stay with a Marlin
as the original question called for I would go with the 45-70. The .450 case
is stronger but either case is strong enough for the limitations of the Marlin
design. As pointed out you can get PMC now for the 45-70 as well as others. But as Lawdog & others have stated, other rifles are available, some of which lend themselves to the .450 case.

Another lever gun alternative is the .450 Browning.
1. You would have the quick handling & fast repeat shots capable of a      lever gun.
2. Unlike the Marlin you could load spitzers.
3. The front lockup design is much stronger, afterall they chamber Magnum rounds in the Browning. Now you actually load a little hotter in the
.450, yes I know the case cap. is slightly less but the change in pressure
would more than make up for this.
4. The Browning is inherently more accurate although the newer Marlins
shoot very well.
5. You would have a detachable mag. which does not change the barrel
harmonics like a tube mag. plus you can load & unload faster for getting
in & out of the truck, to be safe & legal.
6. The Browning hammer is more safe if you carry a roung in the chamber, yea I know you should not but in a dangerous game or jumping game situation it happens.

Just another possibility!

[nomosendero]

Is anyone out their shooting the 450 Browning?

[akpls]

Is anyone out their shooting the 450 Browning?

 I just picked up one of the stainless/laminate ones about a month ago.  I've only had time to throw 6 rounds downrange but plan on working with it over the winter.  It's a nice addition to my Marlin GG and Clark Custom bolt in .450M.  Recoil was about the same as the GG, but was a bit more than the bolt, which is much heavier.

[Lawdog]

akpls,

and Clark Custom bolt in .450M.

I got my M70 barreled action in .450 Marlin from Clark Custom.  They even let me choose what make barrel(Shilen) and length(25") I wanted.  Great guys to do business with.  Hope you like yours as well as I love mine.  Lawdog
 

[devilsrighthand]

Go ahead, just get one of each. They are fun guns.

[Savage .250]

45/70 Gov`t...................450, read somwhere they were like " kissing
  cousin."  Kind of close to each other.
  How about throwing another big boy in the mix?     The Win .458.
   If the reason is "power"  when needed then the .458 should be kind of  
    like SUPERMAN.  Just some thoughts.
 
 " The best part of the hunt is not the harvest but in the experience."

[akpls]

akpls,

and Clark Custom bolt in .450M.

I got my M70 barreled action in .450 Marlin from Clark Custom.  They even let me choose what make barrel(Shilen) and length(25") I wanted.  Great guys to do business with.  Hope you like yours as well as I love mine.  Lawdog
 

I like it so much it's going to Namibia with me in ..... 12 days!  :grin:

[Lawdog]

Savage .250,

read somwhere they were like " kissing
cousin." Kind of close to each other.

In most cases that is true EXCEPT that the case for the .450 Marlin is stronger.  By that I mean it's thicker from the web to the neck.  As for the .458 Win. Mag. it’s a excellent cartridge and deserves all the praise that have been heaped upon it.  The .458 Win. has been credited with killing off the old Nitro cartridges such as the .470 Nitro by duplicating it’s energy lever at a much lower cost.  Yes there was some problems with early factory loads but with newer powders all that is a thing of the past.

akpls,

I like it so much it's going to Namibia with me in ..... 12 days!

What animals are you planning on taking with your .450 Marlin?  Maybe we need to get together and trade load information?  Lawdog
 

[akpls]

I like it so much it's going to Namibia with me in ..... 12 days!

What animals are you planning on taking with your .450 Marlin?  Maybe we need to get together and trade load information?  Lawdog
 

This hunt is mainly for Kudu - I won a free hunt at a local sportsman show drawing a while back.  I also have the option of adding a couple of different animals (warthog, etc.) at my own expense if I like.  My 11 yo son is going along and we plan to hunt for 3-4 days and then tour around for another 4.  Although I've loaded pretty extensively for the .450M I ultimately decided to go with the Hornady factory load for the this trip.  They're dead on at 150 yds and they've whacked every moose I've shot,  convincingly, with one round.  I find that they're hard to improve on.  I've been advised that most of the kudu are taken in the brush at under 100 yards so I should be good to go.  I have been experimenting with 300 gr. Barnes X spitzers, but haven't quite found the "magic load" for those yet and some work with the 450 gr. Barnes solid is on the horizon too.

[Lawdog]

akpls,

When you get back try the newer 450 & 500 gr. Barnes TSX and Banded Solids.  Out to 150 yards they have the same POI out of the .450 Marlin(at least from both of mine they do).  I have one load that will give you 4,897 fpe. using the 450 gr. TSX and Banded Solid.  I know what this load does to a large Coastal Brown Bear.  By the way according to the technicians at Barnes they are going to be adding lighter weight TSX bullets soon on top of larger caliber TSX and Banded Solids for the really big bore shooters.  Lawdog