Author Topic: Failure to extract? (Read 642 times)

Ray P · « **on:** August 11, 2005, 12:12:19 AM »

Any thoughts out there on what can cause a failure to extract?

Last year I bought a little Firestar in 9mm. The gunstore has sent the pistol to his contract gunsmith twice now to fix the problem (6 month turn-around each time). The function has improved this 2nd time back; now it FTEs about twice out of every eight rounds, instead of each time.

When I experience a FTE, the case is usually sitting part-way out of the barrel, as if the the extractor did not get as good grip, or the case slipped off the hook half-way out. The Star has an external extractor which I've cleaned thoroughly with acetone, so it isn't crap under the hook.

I've eliminated the magazines (same problem with 2 NOS factory mags), and I know it isn't grip; If I'm not limp-wristing my 45, I'm not likely to be breaking my wrist on this little thing. Any thoughts? I don't want to send it back a third time, and it does shoot so well, it could be a real keeper

Mikey · « **Reply #1 on:** August 11, 2005, 02:10:01 AM »

Ray - you didn't say what ammo you were using but sometimes it is an ammunition problem and sometimes it may be an extractor problem.

If you extractor 'just grips' most cases then you should get normal extraction. If the extractor is worn too much it won't get enough of a grip on the empty so that as it pulls it out of the chamber the case rim may bump up against the next shell in the magazine and the extractor could lose its grip in the extraction groove.

Did the gunsmith replace the extractor, or just clean it?

Mikey.

KN · « **Reply #2 on:** August 11, 2005, 11:50:05 AM »

I had the same problem with a 40 cal firestar. I took a dremel tool and gave the extractor a little deeper "hook" to catch on. and also put a heavier spring under the extractor so it couldn't jump over as easily. Works good now. These would be wonderful CCW guns if they were not so darn heavy. The size is perfect. Too bad they stoped importing them. I also have a 45 firestar that is one of the most accurate pistols I own. It's never given me a bit of trouble. KN

Ray P · « **Reply #3 on:** August 11, 2005, 03:48:38 PM »

Quote

you didn't say what ammo you were using but sometimes it is an ammunition problem and sometimes it may be an extractor problem.

Mikey - I was shooting two different weights of White box Winchester factory FMJ (115 gr & 124 gr?). The gun would feed shoot & extract fine for about 2, 2-1/2 mags, then start the FTE routine. The warmer the barrel, the more often it happened.

Quote

Did the gunsmith replace the extractor, or just clean it?

Most probably deepened it; the extractor is an external Browning-type, and the gun is no longer made, so replacing the extractor is unlikely. I don't know for sure, the gunstore clerk couldn't tell me what was actually done. As KN points out, these guns are no longer made, so spare parts are damned hard to find.

KN - I believe Wolff makes a spring kit for the M43 Firestar; guess I'll give that a try. Looking back on the last 50 rounds shot, I beginning suspect the problem develops as the barrel warms up. I'll just have to go back to the range this weekend and squeeze in an experiment!

Thanks for the ideas, I chase this down some more & keep you posted.

v/r,
Ray

Mikey · « **Reply #4 on:** August 12, 2005, 02:24:48 AM »

Ray - it also sounds as though you may have a tight chamber. If she does not start to FTE until after the barrel has warmed up, a tight chamber may contribute to your problems.

I would try deepening the extractor notch/hook a bit as KN suggested and I would get away from that white box ammo. Try some mil-surp: often the brass is a tad thicker and the shell casings don't expand as much as some of the commercial stuff might. I would also see if I could burnish the chamber a bit - this might help relieve some tightness. HTH. Mikey.

Ray P · « **Reply #5 on:** August 12, 2005, 12:22:39 PM »

I will definitely check that out. A tight chamber seems weird on a pistol that's been around at least a decade, but that's a much better scenario than what I was starting to envision. I was thinking that as the barrel warmed up, the ID & OD would expand together, making the chamber slightly bigger, allowing the brass to wobble off the hook.

Since new Star barrels are very hard to find, a too-tight chamber is far better than a too-big chamber :-)

Ray P · « **Reply #6 on:** August 19, 2005, 04:37:42 AM »

Well, I tried the Firestar again yesterday with some Remington hollowpoints, and the extracting problem was actually worse than with the Winchester. (haven't seen any milsurp around, maybe I'll try the steel-cases stuff)

Before I fired, I did a clean & inspect. The hook is already pretty aggressive, so I didn't add to it. Everything was in order with the pistol, except the thumb safety detent plunger had been replaced at some time with a ball detent.

The shooting was as I described above; about every other Remington round fte, the Win FMJ 124 gr would often go 5 rds between fte.

After disassembly, the pistol internals had brass flakes everywhere.

I'll find some steel russian & give that a shot.

unspellable · « **Reply #7 on:** August 19, 2005, 07:47:33 AM »

I have a 40 S&W Firestar that has never missed a beat.

The ID of the barrel will expand along with the OD as it warms up. It's a rule of thumb that any void or hole in a piece of metal expands with the metal just as if it were filled in solid.

The Firestart requires the weight to handle the 9 mm or 40 S&W in such a small package. You will note the 9 mm has no corners on the upper surface of the slide while the 40 does have the corners to add weight and keep the slide velocity within reason. I have a 9 mm Kel Tec that is much lighter the my 40 Firestar and it is not pleasant to shoot.

Ray P · « **Reply #8 on:** August 21, 2005, 08:34:56 AM »

Kinda thought ID & OD expanded together. Guess I might need to go with a new barrel. Numrich has an old model Firestar barrel in 9mm, but I'm not sure if mine is old or new. I asked at the 9mm Largo site for more info on the difference; figuring they are really into the Stars, Astras, & Llamas, and would most likely have that info. Oh, I also asked at the Numrich parts forum.

Ray P · « **Reply #9 on:** August 28, 2005, 11:08:16 AM »

Well, I can report that the Russian steel case shoots best so far, with maybe 1 Failure To Extract in 10 rds. If I slow-fire, no FTE. Buying into an oversized chamber more & more.

Oh, I did order the Numrich barrel, so we'll see.

Added later:
New barrel arrived. Pistol now shoots without failure to extract.
I like that.