25-06: Rem. Sendero vs. Savage 12BVSS

[ourabmen]

Thanks for the opinions. I am looking at a nice used Sendero and a new Savage 12 BVSS for a 25-06 deer gun. I hear lots of glowing reports on the Savage rifles, but would like to hear how they compare to the Sendero's. Thanks for the help.

OUrabmen

[nomosendero]

This is a very good & a very tough question! These two Rifles are the top
of the heap in the heavy barreled 25-06, offering exceptional accuracy &
great velocity potential with the 26" barrel. I do feel that the overall
quality of the Remington product line has slipped a little as we have talked
about on this forum in the past & I don't want to dwell on again. At the
same time Savage is becoming more agressive & offering features such as
accutrigger & enhancing the appearance, ergonomic features somewhat.
It could be stated that Savage is better overall in out of the box accuracy.
However, the Sendero is in a special catagory as are a few Custom Shop
Remingtons & can definitely more than hold their own against Savage. I
currently own 2 Sendero's, one in 25-06 & one in 300 Win. Magnum. After
proper barrel break-in & load development, they are both extremely
accurate with the 25-06 shooting 1/2" 100 Yard groups with 115 TSX & with 85 Gr. BT & the .300 Shooting groups at 500 Yards that I will not
repeat but I grin alot on these good days,(3-shot groups).
The H-S Precision stock on the Sendero is excellant with it's alum. bedding block. It can be skim bedded with minimal fuss if needed but
many times is not needed. If the Savage needs to be bedded, it is much
more complicated & you must remember to float the tang area. Both have
good barrels & it seems the Rem. barrels tend to be a little rough before
break-in. I like the Savage Accutrigger but the Sendero can be adjusted
down to 2-2.5# by a competent Smith.
The Savage does not have the resale of the Rem. but that is starting to
change. That would not keep me from buying the Savage, but keep this
in mind. The Sendero has been discontinued by the strange new green
boys. People like me look for these guns & you can rest assured that
the value of the Sendero will stay up.
In summary, I like the Savage alot & both models you asked about will
shoot better than I can hold, but I have to give the Sendero the edge.
Also keep in mind that the Savage is used as soon as you pull the trigger.
Just my thoughts.  

[oso45-70]

nomosendero

Very good post Sir, Told as it should be without wandering down a burning path. A post i can agree woth 100% Thank you.........Joe........

[Lawdog]

Also keep in mind that the Savage is used as soon as you pull the trigger.
Just my thoughts.  

And the Remington isn't?  Any rifle is used once it is fired, no matter who makes it.

While I don't own a Remington Sendero or a Savage 12 BVSS, I do own a number of Remington's rifles and a package model Savage M10 so I feel able to state that the Savage was and is more accurate than any of my Remington's.  All the Remington's I own needed work before they would group the way I wanted them to(MOA or better) and all I did to my M10 was mount another scope on it, as the one that came with it got broke during shipping, and a Decelerator recoil pad.  The Savage started out with a sight-in group that measured just over 3/4” and has only gotten better with load work.  My pick would be go with the Savage.  With a used Remington you maybe getting someone else’s problem.  Lawdog
 

[nomosendero]

Lawdog
I am speaking from experience with these.
That is why I singled out the Sendero from the other Remingtons & that
was the original question asked, a comparison between Senderos & the
Sav. BVSS.
I said in my post that Savage rifles are in general more accurate than
Remingtons in my opinion, but that is not relevant to the question. Looks
like we agree on that.
As far as the used gun statement goes, you may get a problem, but it is
unlikely. Most used guns like this have not been shot much & you can
take certain precautions such as borrowing a bore scope or get the history of the rifle or getting permission to shoot the rifle. Most quality guns I see for sale like this is because the owner had money problems or just had to get something different. I have had better luck buying used guns than new ones. It seems I bought someone else's problem, in these cases the factory's. By the examples you mentioned in your post it looks like you have also.

[nomosendero]

Lawdog, he already said the Remington was used & the Savage is new
so show me how my last statement in my first post about the Savage  was wrong!
I think anyone old enough to read this will know that any brand of gun
is used once it is fired!!!!!

[Lawdog]

nomosendero,

In my lifetime I have seen many, many rifles sitting on the consignment or used rifle rack and to many times in checking them out have found problems with them.  The real reason the owners dumped them.  Not all stores will let you take a rifle out to try it first and many won’t give a guarantee or refund on them either if you are not happy.  My post was meant as a warring about purchasing used firearms.  Sometimes buyers get bit.  Seen it happen too many times.  Lawdog
 

[nomosendero]

Lawdog
I guess I will never know why you made the remark that any rifle is used
once it is fired, no matter who makes it. Again, he said the Rem. was used
& this is why I made the distinction as ANYONE can see. But that's OK, I
will forget it also.
NO DOUBT IT WON'T HURT A THING FOR ALL OF US TO HEED YOUR WARNINGS!
I also have seen many, many, many problems with used rifles in various
racks across the fruited plain. But with most guns of quality like the
Sendero or the Savage 12BVSS, this is usually not the case.
You said all stores will not let you try out a gun & this comes to no surprise
to anyone. Some may not want you to look at the bore with a bore scope
either. Some also may not want you to ask about the history of the rifle.
Did someone say we should buy from this type of clown? No, most dealers
will let you do at least one of these things & if not I would not buy a new
gun from them either. I am very confident that ourabmen can figure this
out all by himself without our help. I believe that this is why he asked for
opinions to begin with, no doubt with some facts thrown in for good
measure.
And again, I see complaints about new guns all over this website and
that will continue! SO LET THE BUYER BE CAUTIOUS HERE ALSO!
I hope others can share their experiences with these two specific models
and get back to the original subject.  

[nomosendero]

ourabmen
Just curious, did you buy one of these rifles? If so, I hope it is a tack driver & it probably will be.

Good Shooting!           Rod Smith
                                    Pocahontas, AR.

[ourabmen]

Gents, thanks for all of the replies.  Man this is a tough group, and I thought the fly fishing forums got heated with regards to favorite rods!!!!

Well I decided to get the Sendero.  The jury will be in after I get the gun as it is "pre-owned" (used just sounds so ugly!)  It should arrive in a 5-7 business days, and after a trip to the range I will post a report.  

I am stoked about the rifle in general, as it is my first quarter bore. After reading all of Lawdog's exhortations about this caliber I just could not help myself.  

I guess the next step in this journey is to find what this beast likes to eat!  Oh, a life without a hobby is a waste of life indeed. Again, thanks to one and all who chimed in.

Warmest regards,

OUrabmen

[Lawdog]

Lawdog
I guess I will never know why you made the remark that any rifle is used
once it is fired, no matter who makes it.

The reason is the way you worded your remark,

Also keep in mind that the Savage is used as soon as you pull the trigger.

, it makes it look as if both rifles will be the same, which they won't.  The new Savage will have a warrantee in place and the Remington won't(as if their warrantee was any good in the first place(first hand experience with this).  My point was that all rifles become used once they're shot but they still have the advantage of a warrantee that used rifle isn't going to have in most cases.  Lawdog
 

[nomosendero]

ourabman
Congratulations! I believe you made a very wise choice. I hope things
work out for you with this rifle & I am sure it will. I think that people who
have actually tried them will agree that this particular model is one of
the most shootable & potentially accurate factory rifles.

Good shooting  

[nomosendero]

Lawdog

No need being mad at me about him buying a Remington.
You did not answer tis question before, even though you posted since then, so why now.

No sir, my remark was worded just fine, thank you!
Anyone who read (carefully) the first post by ourabmen & then read the
first post I made to him (carefully), would have no problem understanding it. If not I hope they don't admit it.

Concerning your second argument, it is a rather moot point. I have sent guns to the factory before that did not belong to the original owner & many
times the factory would repair them free. I have a Ruger handgun here now that I am about to send in & no, no warranty card was filled out and
yes they will fix it. I bought a Rem. 700 from my brother, used & knowing
that the 2 rear scope mount screws were off-centered & they Fitted the
barrel onto a new receiver & sent it back to me at no charge, even
though you indicate in a blanket statement that Rem. does not even honor
warrantees. On the flip side, I have an Encore 209X50 that I bought new
& yes I sent in the warr. card & I have sent it back once about 18 months
ago for accuracy problems & sure enough, I will send it to them a second
time. Many rave about TC service, but this one gun has given me problems. I still have faith that they will help me out as they have for others. Greybeard wrote about problems about a Taurus & the warranty
card did not do a whole lot. I don't know why Rem. did not help you but
as in the above examples, some times it happens.

I don't think it makes much since to be in this silly pissing contest. All I wanted to do is help someone who is asked a question. I do not see the
gain in this for anyone & like I said before I would prefer to stay on the topic always.
Thanks

[Lawdog]

nomosendero,

No need being mad at me about him buying a Remington.

Who said anything about being "mad"?  When I last posted I hadn't even read what he had decided to buy.  I was just answering your question.  As far as I am concerned this thread is over.  Lawdog
 :toast:

[nomosendero]

Lawdog

Thank you sir, ah finally!!!

[riddleofsteel]

Now that you own a Sendero this is worth reading.

http://www.snipercountry.com/hottips/Stocks_HS.htm

I have had two Remingtons with the H&S stock. A Sendero in 25-06 and a Synthetic Varmit in .308. Both came from the box as dogs and would not shoot under 1.5 MOA for love nor money. I learned early on that the Sendero needed the bedding screws set to 65 inch/pounds to shoot at its best. When it was so torqued it would shoot .25 MOA with a variety of bullets and loads.
The .308 did not respond to simple torque adjustment. What it needed was a skim coat of bedding on the bedding block and to have its recoil lug bedded. After simple bedding and proper troque on the bedding screws it shot single ragged hole groups from then on.

[nomosendero]

riddleofsteel

No doubt about it, in fact HS Pre. advises setting the action screws at 65 inch pounds. As stated above, my 25-06 would shoot sub 1/2" groups
but I am getting it skim bedded & Ackley Improved up in Montana. I have
some 125 Gr. Wildcat Bullets that I will test as soon as it arrives.