Author Topic: 35 Whelen or 35 Whelen improved (Read 1471 times)

BULLMASTIFF · « **on:** August 24, 2005, 04:31:28 AM »

OK, I've been bitten by that 35 calibre bug as well. I have a Remington 760 pump action in 35 Rem. I intend to convert this to my Elk gun. I have found the gunsmith I plan to use (he was highly recomended by other gunsmiths in the area) and he recommended going to the 35 Whelen AI (30 deg. shoulder) over the standard 35 Whelen. I know what his other pros / cons of the Whelen vs. Whelen improved are, but I would like to hear it from other gunsmiths as well. I know if I were to go to the improved, I would have to reload, but that is a non issue to me, I almost have all of my reloading equipment purchased already. So what would the pros / cons of 35 Whelen vs. 35 Whelen Imp. be?

Or anyone with knowledge on the Ackley Improved, please chime in as well.

Robert · « **Reply #1 on:** August 24, 2005, 05:36:17 AM »

I am not a gunsmith, but I shoot the AI and I think it is great. The brass is supposed to last longer with the sharper shoulder, and I think it acctually has a little less recoil due to less back-thrust on the bolt. However...the think the 40% shoulder is a little slower chambering than the standard shoulder in some rifles, the sharp shoulder tends to snag a little more.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 24, 2005, 06:41:32 AM »

The AI version of the 35Whelan is a bit unusual. Most AI rounds are formed by simply firing a standard caliber round in the AI chamber, not so the 35 Whelan. The base to shoulder length is greater on the AI version (the same as the Brown-Whelan??). This means that brass will have to be fireformed and since the shoulder is farther farward on the AI version headspace for this procedure is hard to get. Either the case must be expanded to a larger bore (a 9mm?) about 36 caliber would be enough but one could go farther to the 375. This is then run into the AI sizer vreating a shoulder to control headspace for the fireforming operation. The other option is a heavy round nosed cast bullet seated out far enough to contact the throat. This can then be used to create the correct headspace for the forming operation. Of course once the brass has been created, without excess stretching, it will lasst a long time. That's one of the benefits of the AI process, less case stretch and longer case life. In the case of the 35 Whelan there is a second benefit. The shoulder that's left after expanding a 30-05 to 35 caliber is just barely adequate, the shoulder of the AI(or the Brown-Whelan) being much more pronounced is much better. The other thing you may want to check on is the twist rate of the remington's barrel.

Buckeye · « **Reply #3 on:** August 24, 2005, 10:12:00 AM »

The only difference between the AI and the reg. would be a tad more Vel. thats all ,and that only equals a greater range ,so unless your gonna make 300 yd. + shots I'd apt for the 35 Whelen.
Just my 2 cents
I had the same problem so I went with the 9.3 X62 Mauser.

I've been planning on re-barraling my sporterized Mauser to a 7X57 but ,today I thought of re barring to a 35 Whelen with a 20in. barrel. !

Robert · « **Reply #4 on:** August 24, 2005, 01:27:27 PM »

Buckeye, from everyhing that I have read about the two cases....you are wrong. Gunnut69 sounds like he knows what he is talking about, although I DID NOT realize that there was a difference fireforming the AI bras in the chamber, but my rifle is a P-17 with a positive feed bolt that holds the shell in place...so I would not have noticed. I guess it would be a problem in a push feed action. However....I have heard of people fireforming some cases by seating the bullet all the way into the lands for headspace.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 25, 2005, 07:27:59 AM »

The difference in base to should length is around .030 which seems small but in headspacing a little can cause a lot of problems. The extractor on your 1917 Enfield should help but I'd seat a bullet out to the lands anyway.. just cautious in my old age I guess. Just as a little nosey, who made your 1917? I have one rebuilt into a 300 mag and it's a great favorite of mine.. By the way, mine's a Winchester.

Robert · « **Reply #6 on:** August 25, 2005, 08:08:18 AM »

I had ER Shaw rebarrel mine, and they did an excellent job. I just wish I had them put on rifle sights while they had it.

Nobade · « **Reply #7 on:** August 25, 2005, 04:56:31 PM »

Hi there Gunnut, you've got me curious. I just did a 35 Whelen Improved today. Clymer reamer and 30-06 GO gage. I did just what I normally do with all Ackley rounds - held the GO gage out .012 longer than I would for a normal chamber. It worked perfectly - closed hard but manageable on both factory 35 Whelen and 30-06 cases, and formed them out perfectly. So, my question is who made your reamer? What are you using for a headspace gage? I do have an Ackley gage to use, but it and most other ones I have seen are too short. I switched to the zero headspace +.012 stickout method years ago from doing a test. I chambered a rifle up for an AI (Think it was a 280 AI) by holding the gage +.004 from nominal. I fired a primer in a factory case. It stuck out a bunch. I trimmed .001 off the shoulder and tried again. Finally, when I reached .012 over nominal, the primers were flush indicating zero headspace. Since then I have done every AI chamber this way, and have been having perfect results and satisfied customers. I now wonder if there are several versions of the 35 Whelen imp running around out there? The whole Ackley Improved concept is being able to fire factory ammo in a AI chamber and having it work properly. If there is a version with the shoulder .030 forward it would be plenty dangerous if it were marked Ackley Improved since somebody would assume they could use factory ammo in it and blow themselves up.

Whelen Man · « **Reply #8 on:** August 26, 2005, 01:59:55 AM »

The Brown-Whelen and the Ackley Improved Whelen are not the same cartridge. I think this is where the disagreement lies. The Brown-Whelen must have a false shoulder formed and cases fireformed to allow for the extra case body length. The Ackley Improved can simply be fired and cases formed from factory 35 Whelen ammo. There has been a lot of confusion over this through the years and any wildcat cartridge you are not absolutely sure of should have a chamber cast to verify it's identity. Markings may not always be correct! Be safe. :shock:

CowboyEngr · « **Reply #9 on:** August 26, 2005, 03:10:46 AM »

Nobade and Whelen Man, you are absolutely correct. The Brown-Whelen is the 35 Whelen with the shoulder blown significantly forward. A "standard" 35 Whelen A.I. chamber should function a standard 35 Whelen perfectly, and thus fire-form to A.I. in one step.

There are undoubtedly several 35 Whelen Improved versions out there, but the "standard" maintains the same headspace as the 35 Whelen.

I am leary of establishing the fire-forming headspace by relying on the gap between the bolt face and the extractor claw of a CRF, or by seating the bullet out long enough to engage the rifling. The only good way to fire-form a case, that needs the shoulder blown out, is to expand the neck to a much larger caliber and then reform a "temporary" shoulder using a resizing die. To do otherwise will likely work most of the time, but certainly invites a case-head separation within the next reloading or two. The only case-head separation I ever experienced was a result of seating the bullet to engage the rifling to establish a fire-forming headspace. And this was with a CRF rifle! When 9.3x62 cases were hard to come by, I used to fire-form mine from 30-06 brass. After that experience, I ordered several boxes of 9.3x62 brass from Norma and waited 6 weeks to get them. Of course, they are much easier to get now.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 26, 2005, 07:55:33 AM »

Since I've never made an AI Whelan my only refernce was the excellant Clymer website. They list the base-to-shoulder length for a 35 Whelan at 1.740 inches, the AI(not Brown/Whelan variant) at 1.779 inches. The Clymer measurements are reamer dinmesions. I have used the bullet to headspace a case for forming before and as I indicated it is not the optimum method but will work. It's best used with cast or swaged bullets and fast powders. I also used a filler. As to changing cartridge dimensions by adding/subtracting dinmensions this will at times create a cartridge variant.. and can lead to dangerous situations where the chamber is non-standard for the barrel stamp. It is normal to set back a barrel before AI work as the shoulder angle changes causing a standard round to actually headspace against a different portion of the shoulder angle. Cartridge dimensions are standardixed to create uniforminty. This lessens the likelyhood of problems across the board. Brass cases are amazingly ductile things but if they fail it can be hazardus in the extreme.

Nobade · « **Reply #11 on:** August 26, 2005, 06:00:57 PM »

OK, I can see where the confusion is coming from. The distance from the base to where the shoulder starts is indeed longer on the AI version. The neck is also longer, and the shoulder angle is sharper. But the headspace dimension from the bolt face to the datum point is the same. That's the whole point of a properly set up AI chamber. When I close the bolt of one of my AI chambered rifles on a factory 35 Whelen case, it leaves a bright ring about halfway up the shoulder where it has crush fitted into the chamber. It is this point that supports the case and allows it to blow out properly without stretching. If anyone has a Ackley Improved rifle and wishes to see if it is set up properly, prime a virgin factory case and fire it in your rifle. If the primer is protruding at all above the case head, it is too loose and your brass is being stretched when you fireform cases, and you don't have a correct AI chamber.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 27, 2005, 10:51:44 AM »

Yes indeed it seems that's the problem.. Do you set back the barrel back a thread when doing the AI conversion? It was my understanding that to get the headspace for the AI right, the barrel had to be shortened a thread. I had some experience with the Brown-Whelan but have never down an AI.. The standard 35Whelan is an excellant round but the case life of the improved rounds seems better.

Nobade · « **Reply #13 on:** August 28, 2005, 12:25:52 PM »

Yes, you absolutely must set the barrel back when you're chambering for any Ackley cartridge and the 35 Whelen is no exception. As I mentioned before, I like to set them up so the headspace gauge sticks out .012" more than it normally would for the standard version of the cartridge. I see so many rifles come in the shop that people have tried to chamber to Ackley Improved cartridges without being set back. Once they find out their brass is breaking in half they bring them in to be set up properly.

BULLMASTIFF · « **Reply #14 on:** September 06, 2005, 12:33:29 PM »

Thanks for all of the info. You all have basically confirmed the info I had recieved. The rifle is now at the gunsmith to be rechambered in 35 Whelen Improved. Thanks again

Nobade · « **Reply #15 on:** September 06, 2005, 04:54:11 PM »

I predict you'll like it! The performance gain is minimal, but the headspace control is increased and the cases look way cooler, kind of like miniture .416 remingtons without the belt. Make sure the reamer he uses doesn't have too big a throat. So many of them are ground way oversize for some reason, and that doesn't help accuracy at all.