Author Topic: Chrony Results - 445 SuperMag and 45-70 (Read 1179 times)

lik2hunt · « **on:** September 11, 2005, 11:45:35 AM »

Here's Digger's post from another thread.

Hey Varmiter; I finally got around to chrono'ing some 265 gr.Hornady today,and they came in on average at 2066 fps.I was using either 30.5 or 31 grs of 296. I also loaded some 270 gr. gold dots,with a midrange load for the 300 gr. bullet with 29.5 grs. of 296 and got 1746 fps. It shot exactly the same as Lik2hunt's 4570 factory Rem. 300 gr. loads. With the same load the 265 shoot's the 270 gr.bullet should about equal it.We placed the chrono about 20 ft. from the muzzle. The gold dot load had a 2 ft. per second spread. Digger

I was impressed. The 265 grainer is the one I hope to turn into my Hog Buster. It's this one. .430 44 CAL 265 GR Flat Point Item No. 4300. But.....the Gold Dot certainly got my attention too. The 45-70 factory Rem 300 gr. was a pussycat at 1745 avg. fps. Should be good hog medicine too until........now when's that reamer supposed to be here again..........

Varminter · « **Reply #1 on:** September 11, 2005, 12:00:55 PM »

Very impressive. 2066 fps. with a 265 gr bullet. Can you imagine what a 200gr or 180gr bullet would be doing?

lik2hunt · « **Reply #2 on:** September 11, 2005, 01:24:05 PM »

The 180 XTP, which both of us neglected to post about, averaged an impressive 2281 fps using 34.4 grains of W-296 which is the recommended accuracy load in the Hornady manual, I believe. It still had some throttle left though and hasn't been pushed to it's limits yet. This will be our Prarie Dog round for next spring! :eek: :wink:

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** September 11, 2005, 01:34:03 PM »

The Hornady 6th shows the 180gr XTP using W296 at 35.7grs start and 38.6grs max for the 445SM. :grin:

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #4 on:** September 11, 2005, 01:42:00 PM »

Are those bullets constructed stoutly enough to hold together at those speeds? Just wondering. The gristle plate on a hog is mighty tough from what I've heard.

Ian

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #5 on:** September 11, 2005, 04:16:14 PM »

Hey Quick; I was using the Sierra manuel,and they give the max as 35.5 grs. of 296. I know that the primers were still very round on the edge's. It would be interesting to see what I could get out of the 180 gr. with the Hornady book. The 265 gr. bullets were the ones built for the 444 Marlin,so they should be just right for the 445.I also read on the slip of paper that comes with the XTP's that they are rated for 1800 plus fps. Digger

quickdtoo · « **Reply #6 on:** September 11, 2005, 05:18:31 PM »

Digger, have ya checked case length growth after resizing the 445SM brass??

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #7 on:** September 12, 2005, 07:39:20 AM »

Yep I checked the case length,and after 3 loadings they have lenghened .001" . Most of them have'nt grown any at all. Digger

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** September 12, 2005, 09:53:03 AM »

Quote from: Ditchdigger

Hey Quick; I was using the Sierra manuel,and they give the max as 35.5 grs. of 296. I know that the primers were still very round on the edge's. It would be interesting to see what I could get out of the 180 gr. with the Hornady book. The 265 gr. bullets were the ones built for the 444 Marlin,so they should be just right for the 445.I also read on the slip of paper that comes with the XTP's that they are rated for 1800 plus fps. Digger

Digger the manual included with the Sierra Infinity 5.1 software shows 36.6grs of 296 as the max with the 180gr JHC and 35gr with the 220gr JHC. Guess a guy can just pick and choose what data he wants to use, seems there aren't 2 sources that agree!!

Mac11700 · « **Reply #9 on:** September 12, 2005, 10:18:03 PM »

Quote

Guess a guy can just pick and choose what data he wants to use, seems there aren't 2 sources that agree!!

No you shouldn't...this can be very dangerous especially when exstrapolating data with an unknown pressure curve,not only that...what if a newbe goes and started switching components on his own with out calling the company who's components he's using,what do you think the possibilities are... ...Ohhh...I know people do it everyday.. and they will tell you..." I've done this for years and never had a lick of problem"...that's fine for them..but it isn't a safe and recommended reloading practice...and take it from someone who has been around the block more than many with hot loads...there is no free lunch...better yet...don't take my word for it......pick up the phone and call the folks at Hodgdon's or Hornady or Sierra yourself... and ask them if it's ok to use their data with another companies bullet and powder and exstrapolating the powder data and see what they say...Hodgdon tested their loads with different companies bullets...Hmmmmmmm.. funny thing...they never went over a 240 grain bullet in the 445 Super Mag...and I don't see any pressures mentioned for them...ever wonder why??? Call them and ask..... Sierra and Hornady, they only test their own bullets... are their loads safe...for the gun they were shooting it in...and what they are shooting it in...isn't what your shooting it in now is it...Why doesn't someone here who's done this...call them and see what they say...?...Ok...want to keep your heads in the sand... don't want to call... Still think it's safe just to change stuff around making guesstaments...pg 109 Hodgdons Annual...44mag loading...bullet...Nosler 240 grain JHP...powder H110...start load..23.0 grains 1750fps 25,200 cup...max load..24.0 grains 1817 fps..36,200 cup... with 1 grain more powder you get...11,000 cup more pressure Sure folks...let's just substitute and make guesstaments on components...and then post them here claiming their safe.......NOT...

Guys...do what you want to do...reload the way you want to reload...but if your mixing and matching and just guessing without checking things out with those companies who's components your using....don't bother posting it here...someone could get hurt...or worse...

Mac

warf73 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 13, 2005, 01:38:58 AM »

I don't have my reloading book infront of me but,

Quote

Hodgdon tested their loads with different companies bullets...Hmmmmmmm.. funny thing...they never went over a 240 grain bullet in the 445 Super Mag

Hornady did and has the data in there reloading book. There is data for the 445sm with bullets weighting 180-300gr. in the Hornady reloading manual.

I agree about mixing and matching componits(BIG NO NO) but just because 1 reloading manual doesn't have said data doen't mean another manual doen't.

Warf

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #11 on:** September 13, 2005, 03:35:00 AM »

Yep,its just like Mac said work up slowly. Some reloading manuels may be dangerous in your gun,while others are ultra conservative.The loads I used in the 300 gr. XTP were 30 grs. of 296 and were very near the max. load I would use in my gun. I was still .7 gr.shy of the listed max,but the primers were flat. I've got to go get some more 300's but I'm thinking about backing the load down to 1900 fps. just to be on the safe side.The 265 gr.load will stay as is. Digger

.308 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 13, 2005, 03:51:36 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo

Guess a guy can just pick and choose what data he wants to use, seems there aren't 2 sources that agree!!

I may be wrong here, but I took what Quick to say was, a person could pick and choose the data and the components listed in that data for his/her loads, not mix, say for instance, Speer bullets with Hornady data, etc. :wink:

Mac11700 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 13, 2005, 06:41:22 AM »

.308:

Quote

I may be wrong here, but I took what Quick to say was, a person could pick and choose the data and the components listed in that data for his/her loads, not mix, say for instance, Speer bullets with Hornady data, etc.

I know what Quick said was tounge in cheek...What I said... needed to be said for a number of reasons though...and isn't inferring anything against him..

Warf:

Quote

Hornady did and has the data in there reloading book. There is data for the 445sm with bullets weighting 180-300gr. in the Hornady reloading manual.

I know..this is why I said..

Quote

Sierra and Hornady, they only test their own bullets... are their loads safe...for the gun they were shooting it in...and what they are shooting it in...isn't what your shooting it in now is it..

Anytime your loading for a straight walled pistol cartridge and you are trying to take it to the max..you have to use extreme caution.The pressures spikes so fast... so fast you don't realize it thru conventional means.Pistol cartridges using fast pistol powders do-not behave like bottlenecked rifle cartridges achieving higher than normal velocities is and should be to anyone reloading a major warning sign of a potential problem.it doesn't always mean the cartridge is efficient ... You have to mike your cases at the web in a couple of areas...not just check for case growth in lenght and...you must have a understanding of what your doing and what to look for...before and after firing them... when working up loads and if there has been any change to the chamber that your working on it or someone else...a chamber cast is needed to be done...since you don't have any idea of what the chamber measurements are to base your findings on and make a accurate judgement...With straight walled rimmed cartridges...primers may or may not be flattened...cases may or may not increase in lenght...depending on how long the chamber proper is cut..also..if the leade has been reduced or removed..the pressures will raise expotintially higher and quicker than any rifle cartridge will...look in your manuals.... just as the books show what the velocity does for a tiny increase in powder...it will be much more if the chamber is short..H&R and NEF knows this and this is one of the reasons they chamber cartridges long in them...I have been told this on numerous occasions by different company officials.....Our Handi's aren't Rugers or Remingtons...nor do they have the strenght as even some of the modern Smith & Wesson pistols... they are strong..but only to a point.....extraction usually isn't any issue in a single shot rifle...namely because of the rim and the case being straight walled..it's usually not till you have a case rupture do you know there's a problem because you are headspacing the cartridge on the Rim...not the shoulder ...this is one of the main problems when maxing out these type cartridges...the 45-70 is this way too...but one of the biggest problems I have with this cartridge is that it is not SAMMI approved...so there isn't a set pressure standard for it...and when folks start exstroplating data from one bullet company to the next...they run the risk of incurring serious problems.No two bullets from different bullet companies have the same bearing surface on them...this is a fact...the bullet companies know it...and this is one of the reasons they tell you not to substitute components this includes bullets as well...unless you have the correct equipment for measuring the differences...and they are very minute differences...you don't know..and since it is very obvious that even tiny differences in powder weights can cause such a dramatic increase in the pressures...the exact same thing happens when changing bullets with longer bearing surfaces or thicker jackets..You have a larger leeway with normal bottlenecked cartridges...not much by any means...but some never-the-less.. even then it's still not recommended by them..

Like I said...I don't care how a person reloads for his/her own rifle or what caliber...what I do care about is making sure no-one gets hurt from information posted here.....common sense should be used...when in doubt...call them... Everyone have to realize the vast number of new reloaders that are here as members... also as guest's.... How many folks comes here to our NEF forum looking for load data and help...It's amazing how were growing each day and.. it is our responsability to start these new folks out on the right foot and not hurt themselves,their rifles,or others in the process...we have try to make sure the information posted here is accurate...and safe ...and that all the safe reloading practices are adhered to..

I strongly urge everyone to call the bullet and powder companies and talk with their full time ballisticians...these folks reload for a living and know the workings of these cartridges 100 times better than what we can ever know them...This I know for a fact.... I call them all the time...and have for eons...literally...and I trust the data and information they give me,because they have all the pressure data before them on what they have tested..

I'm truly sorry if this has offended anyone...but it is one of those things needing to be said..

Mac

.308 · « **Reply #14 on:** September 13, 2005, 09:11:41 AM »

No offense taken here for sure.

I understand where you're coming from. :agree: I've always known it was one of the cardinal rules not to mix and match data. :oops:

jeff223 · « **Reply #15 on:** September 16, 2005, 05:56:35 AM »

how has the accuracy been since the rechamber?any better than before?

.308 · « **Reply #16 on:** September 16, 2005, 06:13:44 AM »

Quote from: jeff223

how has the accuracy been since the rechamber?any better than before?

Can't tell you yet, still waiting my turn with the reamer. :roll: :-D :-D Hope your trip was great.

Still haven't found any published data for the Super and the Speer 270. :cry: Later..

Nixter · « **Reply #17 on:** September 16, 2005, 01:28:35 PM »

Mac, thanks for the tip on calling the component reps when making a new load. I'm a new reloader and need need all the info I can get.

Internet info is great but can't be beat by checking with the pro's.

Nixter