Author Topic: Why Alum Foil? Why not silk (Read 2508 times)

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #30 on:** April 09, 2006, 01:46:30 PM »

Quote from: Artilleryman

I quess my mindset is in the 19th century.

Nothing bad about that at all.

But you have raised the question, let's explore it further:

What/where/when is the first recorded use of silk as a material for powder bags?

and

WHY silk? Reasons old and new.

jeeper1 · « **Reply #31 on:** April 09, 2006, 02:17:12 PM »

Quote

WHY silk? Reasons old and new.

Tight weave?

guardsgunner · « **Reply #32 on:** April 09, 2006, 02:22:49 PM »

CW- Looks like your linking modern expeirnce to old tech., does not always work. The 1853,1861 and 1862 Ord. Manuals state(1862) on page 271,that, "Made of merino or serge. The material should be composed entirely of wool, free from any mixture of thread or cotton and of suffciently close texture to prevent the powder from sifting through:that which is twilled is perfered. Flannel is used when other materials cannot be conveniently obtained." No mention of silk in my 1916 artillery manual either.
Perhaps it changed when silk was easier to get or was it because they no longer had to worry about spark ignition because the shoved the projectile in first from the rear; in modern breech-loading artillery. Who knows?
Silk was around prior to the civil war. If it was the best thing to use, they would not have used Wool in their MUZZLE loading artillery . Perhaps silk is less resistent to spark. (if #3 fail at his job and allows air in the vent.)The men who wrote these books often spent their entire carrers in the study of muzzle loading artillery, they knew what they were doing.
Why second guess them.? Just play it safe.

RCHJr.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #33 on:** April 09, 2006, 03:36:41 PM »

Me link modern to old - yes, I'd use aluminum foil! The original lead foil is hard to come by.

Seriously, with a 4.5" coehorn mortar, I use a funnel with a 1/2" or 3/4" extension to drop the powder down directly into the powder chamber - and not from the powder can, from a 35mm film can pre-measured.

I do recall from my limited artillary days, that the end of the powder bag that was Charge 1 had a red end. It was just under the red end that there was a thin layer of blackpowder used to catch the sparks from the primer (which looked like an all brass .410 shell or a little bigger).

It may have been a coarser cloth over the black powder as well - I'm remembering from some 35 years ago, ok. Which is to say it may well have been not-silk on the spark catching end.

So the questions remain, when/where/why was silk introduced. I think we've been shown it wasn't the original fabric used.

guardsgunner · « **Reply #34 on:** April 09, 2006, 03:52:11 PM »

Ok so now you got me to wondering about mortar charges. I also use a 35mm film can. I will have to look and see what is right, but I aint changing. to conveint.

RCHJr.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #35 on:** April 09, 2006, 04:42:11 PM »

Here's a snippit from Wikipedia:

Paper, canvas and similar materials are particularly liable to smoulder after the gun has been fired, hence the necessity of well sponging the piece. Even with this precaution accidents often occurred owing to a cartridge being ignited by the still glowing debris of the previous round. In order to prevent this, bags of non-smouldering material, such as flannel, serge or silk cloth are used; combustible material such as woven gun-cotton cloth has also been tried, but there are certain disadvantages attending this.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #36 on:** April 09, 2006, 04:52:52 PM »

There are some WWI references to German naval ammunition (cannon) in silk bags and some circa 1898 powder silk bags from a surplus site that showed up in a Google search.

So, we're back into the 19th century with silk bags for powder.

Was it in fact ever used with blackpowder? Perhaps.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #37 on:** April 09, 2006, 05:13:14 PM »

Found one reference to powder bags used in 1812, and with a brush used to remove burning fragments after firing.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #38 on:** April 09, 2006, 05:17:41 PM »

And a reference from Navweapons.com:

Bag Ammunition - Ammunition in which silk or rayon bags are used to hold the propellant and the projectile is handled separately. Propellant bags were manufactured from a special coarse silk known as "shallon" or "cartridge cloth." This burned without leaving any smoldering residue in the barrel which would present a safety hazard when loading the subsequent round. Rayon bags replaced silk ones in the USN sometime during the 1950s after a propellant fire aboard USS South Dakota BB-57 in 1945 was traced to a spark generated when a bag was removed from its metallic container.

Note the spark.

Now a documented reason not to use silk, albeit non-smoldering, but to use aluminum foil. Note the speed with which the change from silk to rayon was made by the Navy - perhaps there was no alternative at the time.

GGaskill · « **Reply #39 on:** April 09, 2006, 06:15:17 PM »

Don't forget the silk shortage during WW II caused by enemy occupation of most silk producing regions. Maybe the change was to eliminate reliance on foreign sources of war materiel.

Double D · « **Reply #40 on:** April 10, 2006, 04:58:02 AM »

Silk and Wool...don't they have a lot static electricity

claypipe · « **Reply #41 on:** April 10, 2006, 06:16:01 AM »

What about wax paper?

CP

Double D · « **Reply #42 on:** April 10, 2006, 02:41:50 AM »

Quote from: claypipe

What about wax paper?

CP

I use to do this. Was realy surprised to find unburned wax paper in the barrel after firing.

Rarely, not often, but more than once I would pull a piece of waxed paper that was smouldering, at least had smoke coming from it.

Never thought anything about it. Just swabbed the bore out good and loaded the next round.

In 1984 I saw the article in The Artilleryman about making spark resistant foil cartridges and just started doing it. Never gave it a second thought.

Some where along the line I came to realize that the wax paper cartridges I had used had been hazardous. There was to much chance of a ember from the wax paper lingering in the bore. So I never considered it again. The spark resitant container of the aluminum foil was a much better idea.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #43 on:** April 10, 2006, 06:08:50 AM »

So far the two critical things (in addition to functionality and ease of handling) are:

1. Burns without smoldering

2. No static electricity

Graybeard · « **Reply #44 on:** April 10, 2006, 06:37:50 AM »

CU_Cannon · « **Reply #45 on:** April 10, 2006, 09:07:59 AM »

CW-
ItÂ’s neat how you are able to go forward in time and comment on claypipeÂ’s post before it was even made.

One thought for using 100% wool is its resistance to burning. I believe fire fighters uniforms were once made of wool for that reason. The ember smothering effect of the wool may be the similar to that of foil.

Powder keg · « **Reply #46 on:** April 10, 2006, 09:20:26 AM »

Mabey they decided Silk was better suited for lady's stockings :shock:

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #47 on:** April 10, 2006, 10:23:10 AM »

Quote from: CU_Cannon

CW-
ItÂ’s neat how you are able to go forward in time and comment on claypipeÂ’s post before it was even made.
....

I noticed that, as it happened. It may have something to do with the times the individual computer's time is set or time zones, I don't know.

Mine is set close to the atomic clock and I'm in the Eastern Time zone.
10:22 (pm) now.

Double D · « **Reply #48 on:** April 10, 2006, 10:51:42 AM »

Yes I correctly predicted what Claypipe was going to say then answered 3 1/2 hours before he posted. When I made the actually post it was only 1 1/2 hour ahead.

Good point about the spark resistance of wool. How about silk is spark resistant?

My wife has a silk Kimomo, but I am not going to burn it as that would create a massive explosion, unrelated to gunpower!

GGaskill · « **Reply #49 on:** April 10, 2006, 10:56:53 AM »

For a possible explanation of DD's prescience, see this thread.

Graybeard · « **Reply #50 on:** April 10, 2006, 11:31:39 AM »

Today was time travel day at GBO. Just a little experiment we ran to see if time travel was really possible. Looks like it is. Now for those interested in doing it again we're running a special, for only $5 million we'll see if we can send you where you wanna go in time. No promises tho on getting you back. :-D

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #51 on:** April 11, 2006, 01:44:21 AM »

I'd like to go back about 300 years.

When I get there I'll put a few dollars in an account, which should accumulate to your stated fee - which will be there before I leave - if the bank makes it through history.

Double D · « **Reply #52 on:** April 11, 2006, 06:30:35 AM »

aluminum or silk gentlemen!

Artilleryman · « **Reply #53 on:** April 11, 2006, 08:11:55 AM »

Aluminum foil is cheap and easy to make up. I am unaware of any problems or accidents where the fault was the aluminum foil cartridge.

Cloth costs more and takes more time to make them up. Also any unburned cloth continues to smolder in the barrel. This can be dealt with, but means that even more care has to be taken than with aluminum foil cartridges. The only cloth cartridge that I have every made up was for a dummy round for display purposes.