Author Topic: momentum and silhouettes  (Read 1933 times)

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Offline castman

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momentum and silhouettes
« on: January 09, 2005, 04:30:18 AM »
Is there an excepted number for the minimal momentum to topple the various animals? Also what is the maximum before you start to damage the targets?

Momentum is in (slugs)(feet)/second

Offline 19 Turkeys

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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2005, 06:51:11 AM »
The only animal for which momentum has been discussed that I am aware of is the big bore ram.  There, a momentum factor of .77 lb/seconds is considered bare bones minimum.

No research has been done concerning the momentum factor at which target damage is done to my knowledge.  I believe this to be because there are just too many variables.  Bullet construction, steel types used, etc.  Light weight bullets driven fast create the most target damage.  I did have to disqualify one shooter at a championship match because he was using light weight 6mm bullets at high velocities.  That load was a killer on targets.  People trying to use .223's in half scale can also do substantial target damage.

Also, I do not believe momentum is the absolute "be all" of knocking down targets.  Again, bullet construction and the ability to transfer energy probably has something to do with the matter.

My Production handgun runs a 150 grain, cast 7mm bullet at 1750.  It will occasionally ring an improperly set ram.  An Unlimited handgun I once owned was in 6BR.  I used a Sierra 107 grain bullet at 2,400 fps.  That pistol has yet to ring a ram.

While all the math and physics in the world may indicate that a certain load will successfully knock down targets, somewhere there is that Larry Ram that refuses to fall.  And, Larry is why we keep coming back!

Steve Ware

Offline K2

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Re: momentum and silhouettes
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2005, 06:48:57 AM »
Steve nailed the problem, too many variables.  In my experience the range set up has the largest influence and without uniform stands, targets, and target setting this will continue to be the big factor.  Velocity is the single biggest factor concerning target damage that I have seen.  
Quote from: castman
Is there an excepted number for the minimal momentum to topple the various animals? Also what is the maximum before you start to damage the targets?

Momentum is in (slugs)(feet)/second

Offline Drue

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momentum and silhouettes
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2005, 12:56:00 PM »
There are two ways to knock down a silhouette target with a bullet strike: a hit in the leg or foot can drive it backward to a point where the foot is off the rail or the target can be tipped to a point where the center of gravity is outside the area of the foot. When either of these occurs, the target falls. To do either of these, the bullet strike has to cause the target to move. The operative quantity for imparting this required motion is momentum, NOT energy. There is widespread belief that that kinetic energy is important in terminal bullet performance, and in the case of live targets such as game animals and self defense situations, I am in total agreement. In the case of trying to knock down silhouettes, kinetic energy, except as it relates to momentum, is irrelevant. I know that this goes against the grain of widely held beliefs but I think that but I think that this can be proven by the experiment below. It can be actually performed in the field (the first part anyway) or in the imagination as a thought experiment.

Walk up to a ram standing on its rail and put your finger tips against it. Then move your arm such that your hand moves forward one foot in one second. What happens? Obviously, the ram falls. Now let’s calculate the momentum and kinetic energy involved here. We have to know the effective weight of the arm and this could be difficult because there are a number of factors involved since it is connected to the body. It would be somewhere between the actual weight of the arm and the total weight of the entire body. I am going to pick 64 lbs so that the numbers work out even.

The momentum is the mass times the velocity. In the English system the unit of measure for mass is the slug which is 32 lbs.

mv  =   m x v   =  (64/32) x 1   = 2 slug feet per second


The kinetic energy is one half times the mass times the velocity squared.


ke  = ½ mv**2  = ½ x (64/32) x 1**2   = 1 foot pound


The ram fell even though only 1 foot pound of energy has been put into the system.

Now, let’s look at it from a bullet’s point of view. Suppose that you had a hiccup with your powder measure and short loaded a case and it slipped through that way. Suppose that you had a trigger hiccup with that round when firing at a ram and the shot went off “a little high.” Luck is with you and the 168gr bullet arcs down from the heights and with it’s last gasp, hits dead center on target at only 36.51 fps remaining velocity. You could throw a bullet that fast. Would the target fall?  Not likely. Yet if you calculate the energy, it is 1 ft/lb, same as the arm above. The momentum here is only 0.0274 slug feet per second. Two collisions with a ram, same kinetic energy in both cases. The ram that fell involved way more momentum. This indicates that momentum, not energy is the operative entity is causing the target to move and thereby fall.





The problems with trying to define a precise value for the momentum necessary to topple a ram are that the collision between a ram and a bullet is not a pure free body collision and there are differences in the targets themselves. The ram has feet that are standing on a rail or some other kind of target support. Friction between the feet and the rail can inhibit the ability of the target to move when it is hit. The target can lean toward or away from the firing line making it harder or easier to knock down. Even though a precise number can’t be derived we can try to be in the ball park. Knocking down steel rams is a balancing act between having enough power to push them over (momentum on the target) and avoiding recoil (momentum on the shooter). Silhouette shooters don't like hitting rams and not having them fall. They also don't like missing targets because of the cumulative effects of recoil. We need to use enough gun to feel reasonably sure that the rams will go without going overboard and suffering from recoil.



Based upon my own experiences in rifle silhouette, I think that an MV of s a little more than 1 slug foot per second should do the job on rams.

I have been shooting for several years and have never lost a ram using the .30 cal Sierra 168 MK at 2600 at the muzzle although I have seen it fail once while I was spoting. The hit was very low in the belly and the ram was leaning toward the firing line.  It rocked but did not fall. The .30cal 168 MK starting at 2600 should have a velocity of about 1620 fps at 500M which would be a momentum of 1.2150 slug feet per second.

Since I was going to the matches anyway, I decided to try out hunter rifle i.e. two shoots for one trip. I use a 700 in .243 since it makes weight, is accurate and fun to shoot even though the caliber is light. The Sierra 100gr JSP BT at 3000 fps is the ammo that I use. At 500M the velocity is down to 1866 fps meaning that the bullet is carrying a momentum of 0.8330 slug feet per second.


In four matches I hit a total of 17 rams of which eight fell meaning that an mv of  0.8330 is about 47% effective on rams. My spotter called all of the hits and showed them to me in the scope before the target setters got to the ram line to reset and paint the targets. (I am going to rebarrel it to a .260.)

This is a small sampling of data, of course, and it does not "prove" anything. Viewed as an indicator, I believe that the data shows the 0.8330 is "less than half" and 1.2150 is "almost all."

Drue

Offline ajj

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momentum and silhouettes
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2005, 08:57:28 AM »
I think the biggest variable in taking full size rams is wind. The target is a pretty big sail and if a gust blowing toward the shooter hits the back of the ram just as the bullet arrives, it ain't gonna happen!

Offline Lee S. Forsberg

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« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2005, 04:35:49 AM »
Quote from: Drue
There are two ways to knock down a silhouette target with a bullet strike: a hit in the leg or foot can drive it backward to a point where the foot is off the rail or the target can be tipped to a point where the center of gravity is outside the area of the foot. When either of these occurs, the target falls. To do either of these, the bullet strike has to cause the target to move. The operative quantity for imparting this required motion is momentum, NOT energy. There is widespread belief that that kinetic energy is important in terminal bullet performance, and in the case of live targets such as game animals and self defense situations, I am in total agreement. In the case of trying to knock down silhouettes, kinetic energy, except as it relates to momentum, is irrelevant. I know that this goes against the grain of widely held beliefs but I think that but I think that this can be proven by the experiment below. It can be actually performed in the field (the first part anyway) or in the imagination as a thought experiment.

Walk up to a ram standing on its rail and put your finger tips against it. Then move your arm such that your hand moves forward one foot in one second. What happens? Obviously, the ram falls. Now let’s calculate the momentum and kinetic energy involved here. We have to know the effective weight of the arm and this could be difficult because there are a number of factors involved since it is connected to the body. It would be somewhere between the actual weight of the arm and the total weight of the entire body. I am going to pick 64 lbs so that the numbers work out even.

The momentum is the mass times the velocity. In the English system the unit of measure for mass is the slug which is 32 lbs.

mv  =   m x v   =  (64/32) x 1   = 2 slug feet per second


The kinetic energy is one half times the mass times the velocity squared.


ke  = ½ mv**2  = ½ x (64/32) x 1**2   = 1 foot pound


The ram fell even though only 1 foot pound of energy has been put into the system.

Now, let’s look at it from a bullet’s point of view. Suppose that you had a hiccup with your powder measure and short loaded a case and it slipped through that way. Suppose that you had a trigger hiccup with that round when firing at a ram and the shot went off “a little high.” Luck is with you and the 168gr bullet arcs down from the heights and with it’s last gasp, hits dead center on target at only 36.51 fps remaining velocity. You could throw a bullet that fast. Would the target fall?  Not likely. Yet if you calculate the energy, it is 1 ft/lb, same as the arm above. The momentum here is only 0.0274 slug feet per second. Two collisions with a ram, same kinetic energy in both cases. The ram that fell involved way more momentum. This indicates that momentum, not energy is the operative entity is causing the target to move and thereby fall.





The problems with trying to define a precise value for the momentum necessary to topple a ram are that the collision between a ram and a bullet is not a pure free body collision and there are differences in the targets themselves. The ram has feet that are standing on a rail or some other kind of target support. Friction between the feet and the rail can inhibit the ability of the target to move when it is hit. The target can lean toward or away from the firing line making it harder or easier to knock down. Even though a precise number can’t be derived we can try to be in the ball park. Knocking down steel rams is a balancing act between having enough power to push them over (momentum on the target) and avoiding recoil (momentum on the shooter). Silhouette shooters don't like hitting rams and not having them fall. They also don't like missing targets because of the cumulative effects of recoil. We need to use enough gun to feel reasonably sure that the rams will go without going overboard and suffering from recoil.



Based upon my own experiences in rifle silhouette, I think that an MV of s a little more than 1 slug foot per second should do the job on rams.

I have been shooting for several years and have never lost a ram using the .30 cal Sierra 168 MK at 2600 at the muzzle although I have seen it fail once while I was spoting. The hit was very low in the belly and the ram was leaning toward the firing line.  It rocked but did not fall. The .30cal 168 MK starting at 2600 should have a velocity of about 1620 fps at 500M which would be a momentum of 1.2150 slug feet per second.

Since I was going to the matches anyway, I decided to try out hunter rifle i.e. two shoots for one trip. I use a 700 in .243 since it makes weight, is accurate and fun to shoot even though the caliber is light. The Sierra 100gr JSP BT at 3000 fps is the ammo that I use. At 500M the velocity is down to 1866 fps meaning that the bullet is carrying a momentum of 0.8330 slug feet per second.


In four matches I hit a total of 17 rams of which eight fell meaning that an mv of  0.8330 is about 47% effective on rams. My spotter called all of the hits and showed them to me in the scope before the target setters got to the ram line to reset and paint the targets. (I am going to rebarrel it to a .260.)

This is a small sampling of data, of course, and it does not "prove" anything. Viewed as an indicator, I believe that the data shows the 0.8330 is "less than half" and 1.2150 is "almost all."

Drue


Hi,
I found your post very interesting and I agree with you momentum is more important than kinetic energy. Would I be correct by using bullets with high sectional density, in other words heavy for bore bullets at lower velocitys? How does sectional density figure into this game? Thanks
LSF/375

Offline Lone Star

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momentum and silhouettes
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2005, 05:00:59 AM »
Sectional density (bullet length) has an effect through target dwell time, or the length of time the bullet is in contact with the target.  The exact difference in momentum transfer between a bullet with a SD of .25 and .27 is not known, at least not to me.

Bill Davis wrote an interesting piece several years ago in American Rifleman concerning what 'makes a silhouette fall'.  IIRC he stated that the maximum momentum transfer occurred when the majority of bullet fragments were propelled directly back at the shooter.  Fragments which "splattered" parallel to the target surface were much less effective in target knockdown.  How to effect the maximum amount of bullet fragments flying back at the shooter is the issue, and this could be a safety issue on closer handgun targets.  A very slow, heavy bullet will do that, but then the total amount of momentum is low to begin with and 100% transfer may not be enough....