Author Topic: 357 or 44 mag?  (Read 708 times)

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Offline rc51kid

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357 or 44 mag?
« on: October 06, 2005, 05:29:59 PM »
I have always wanted to have pistol/rifle combo that I could deer hunt with that used the same ammo.  I figured I would do a S&W 44mag revolver and a 44mag lever gun or the Ruger semi auto.  Lately I have been thinking a good revolver and a Handi rifle in the same caliber might be fun.  So my question is would 357mag in a handi rifle be ok for white tail or should I stick with the 44mag.  If you think 357 is ok for deer, what range would be its max? The reason I like 357 is that it is a little nicer to shoot in a pistol (and cheaper) plus I can get a Ruger GP100 chambered in 357 but not in 44.

Offline tallyho

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357 or 44 mag?
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2005, 05:57:29 PM »
rc51kid

What I am about to say ain't necessarily going to apply in your case, but re the pistol/rifle combo, I chose a .357 mag barrel for my Handi. My wife and I each have a Ruger Blackhawk in .357 and she has a Rossi lever gun in .357... :grin: .. so for me it's a no brainer, and yup the ammo is cheap! And I have reloding stuff for .357 already.

One more factor - I have a 10 yr old son that I plan to introduce to centerfire and to take hunting, and I figure the 38/357 is a good way to start him on the centerfire path.

And, I've shot deer with .357 (whitetail and coastal blacktail) at less than 100 yds (with factory 158 gr loads) so I have that going for me as well.

Nothing at all wrong with the .44 mag, just that I am arleady into the 357 via the Blackhawk, and all the reloading stuff...  And by reloading you can 'juice' up the performance of either caliber somewhat.

And yah, I'd grab a .44 Handi in a minute if I stumbled across a bargain on one... but then I'd have to buy a .44 pistol as well... then dies... then components... oh well.

I don't think it makes a hoot of difference which you choose... as long as you are happy with your choice, like I am with mine! :wink:

Cheers
Kerry
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Offline rc51kid

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357
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2005, 06:42:20 PM »
Kerry, when you shot the deer with the 357 did you think it was up to the job or was it just marginal?  What kind of load did you use? Does the barrel length of the rifle help the 357 much?

Offline tallyho

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357 or 44 mag?
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2005, 10:55:23 PM »
rc51kid
This probably won't help much, but here goes:

Both deer I shot with the 357 mag (the whitetail with a Rossi Puma lever action, and the blacktail with an older model H&R 357) were within 30 yards, and I shot them both in the head. Whitetail, between the eyes (he was looking right at me) and the blacktail in the back of the head (he had been looking at me, but had just turned around to head up a hill when I squeezed the trigger) They both fell on the spot.

It certainly was not marginal at that range. I used factory 158 grain loads. The one in the Rossi was PMC 158gr FP if I recall, and I believe I was using Hornady 158gr XTP when  I hunted with the H&R.

Most people are going to say the 357 is a 100-150 yard caliber and I'd be inclined to agree.

It has been awhile since I have hunted and reloaded (went through a divorce and am just getting back into the fun stuff) but I wouldn't have any problem using a 357 mag again on deer. In fact as I mentioned, I am planning to start my son with the 357 in the Handi.

I figure I'll use the XTP again and/or possibly some cast bullets. Gonna spend some time trying out different options before I decide for sure.

I can't give you the stats on the advantage of the rifle length barrel over a pistol, (though I expect someone on the forum will be able to do so) but there definitely is an advantage.

Here's some info from other threads about the 357

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=69757&highlight=357+velocity

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=27998&highlight=357+velocity

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=68555&highlight=357+velocity

There are others you can access by using the search feature on the GB index page.

You can find performance data for the rifle and pistol by typing in '357 mag rifle' and '357 mag pistol' on google and compare the numbers on various reloading sites.

Hope this helps,

Cheers
Kerry
DECEASED 6/6/2013

Offline poncaguy

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357 or 44 mag?
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2005, 03:53:50 AM »
Since I have a Contender 15" 357 Max, would love to have a Handi in 357 Max.....but haven't had any luck so far :cry:

Offline knight0334

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357 or 44 mag?
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2005, 04:25:24 AM »
Just get both, the .357 and the .44.   Problem solved.  lol
RIP ~ Teeny: b.10/27/66 - d.07/03/07

Offline ONE HOLE 4570

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357 or 44 mag?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2005, 05:47:19 AM »
Ya what PONCAGUY said 2 is always better than 1 always have options
That's my boy, GOD BLESS AMERICA!!

Offline ChiefAutoParts

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357 or 44 mag?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2005, 10:31:47 AM »
I live in Utah and have hunted mule deer with a Ruger bolt action .44 before, but have never bagged one with a .44.  I probably wouldn't hunt mulies with a .357 if I had a choice...  A .44 would be the way I'd go.  There isn't anything that a .357 can do that at .44 couldn't do better.  (2cents' worth.)
Aim small, miss small.

Offline trotterlg

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357 or 44 mag?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2005, 01:50:54 PM »
Quote
There isn't anything that a .357 can do that at .44 couldn't do better. (2cents' worth.)


With the exception of getting change back for a twenty.  Larry[/quote]
A gun is just like a parachute, if you ever really need one, nothing else will do.

Offline mt3030

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357 or 44 mag?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2005, 03:17:18 PM »
Except for shooting cheap and readily available 38 Specials, which are perfect for training and plinking.
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Offline ChiefAutoParts

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357 or 44 mag?
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2005, 06:20:34 PM »
Quote from: mt3030
Except for shooting cheap and readily available 38 Specials, which are perfect for training and plinking.


True statement, but the original post did say he was going to use it for deer, and IMHO, a .38 special is a little small and so is a .357 if you want to put deer down.  But could it be done? Sure.  Absolutely.  (Not trying to split hairs, either.)  Both .357/.38 and .44 are readily available, too.  

I didn't really think of this as a cost issue.  Good points, though.  The difference between factory .357 and 44 factory is significant. But I reload, so the difference between .357/38 spec. and .44 Mag is hardly noticable, especially when I can cast my own slugs in both calibers.  I didn't think of the cost difference in reloading vs. factory ammo when I originally posted.
Aim small, miss small.

Offline mt3030

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357 or 44 mag?
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2005, 09:21:34 PM »
CAP,
I don't think I suggested anyone shoot any game animal with a 38 Spl. I was answering a question (and even that was tongue-in-cheek) as to what a 357 could do a 44 couldn't do better: to wit: use 38s for training and plinking. Did I miss something? I live in Montana and have hunted with a wide assortment of calibers. I have never killed any of my 36 deer (since '91) with any of my 357 or 44 cal handguns or rifles. I think, at handgun caliber ranges, there is nothing a 357 or 44 (handgun or rifle) can do that a 45-70 can't do better. On game animals, that is. Although I do admit to carring a 45 caliber handgun for finishing shots, when needed.
 :money:
Wally

By the way, I lived and hunted heavy in Cache Valley for two years. You have some beautiful country down there.
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Offline ChiefAutoParts

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357 or 44 mag?
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2005, 06:19:01 AM »
Quote from: mt3030
CAP,
I don't think I suggested anyone shoot any game animal with a 38 Spl. I was answering a question (and even that was tongue-in-cheek) as to what a 357 could do a 44 couldn't do better: to wit: use 38s for training and plinking. Did I miss something? I live in Montana and have hunted with a wide assortment of calibers. I have never killed any of my 36 deer (since '91) with any of my 357 or 44 cal handguns or rifles. I think, at handgun caliber ranges, there is nothing a 357 or 44 (handgun or rifle) can do that a 45-70 can't do better. On game animals, that is. Although I do admit to carring a 45 caliber handgun for finishing shots, when needed.
 :money:
Wally

By the way, I lived and hunted heavy in Cache Valley for two years. You have some beautiful country down there.


Well-spoken, mt3030.  Thanks for your comments. I have both .357 and .44 caliber firearms and shoot both often.  Both can and do get the job done in the hands of a capable shooter.  Shoot what you're most comfortable with and what you can shoot often with out breaking the bank. (That's why I reload.) I guess I'm lucky because I have access to both calibers and don't need to make these difficult decisions.   :-D
Aim small, miss small.

Offline JPH45

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357 or 44 mag?
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2005, 07:08:58 AM »
Just some random thoughts on the subject. I've never considered the 357 the equal of the 44 for a hunting tool. It just don't have the same umph. That said, I've not shot a deer with a 357 Magnum either, so I can't quantify my thought on the subject with anything other than book data. I have shot deer with the 357 Max, and the result there was impressive to say the least.

But what I really want to speak to is the rifle/pistol combo thing. To me it is nonsensical. Not that having a handgun/rifle combo that shoots the same ammo isn't a common sense thing, it has it's own rational, but most of us don't live in a place or way that the rational makes sense.

The rational is to have common ammo for a handgun and a long gun. The problem with the rational is that in using handgun ammo in a rifle length barrel, one is still left with handgun level performance.

Now before ya go nuts and start hammerin' on me about the velocity gain of long barrel over a short one let me say this..... the velocity gain is never as great as that of the same bullet pushed by a case with more powder capacity.

For a moment let us look at the 357-158 and 170 grain bullet. Max you'll get from these in a rifle barrel is 1800 for the 158 and 1600 for the 170. There is a bit of fudge factor  and you might beat that by 50 fps or so, but I bet you'll more often come up a touch shy.

Now look at the 30-30. It drives a 150 grainer to 2300 fps and 170's to 2100 fps. A significant velocity advantage over the 357 but what the velocity advantage gives us is not a harder hit as much as it gives us range. And range is what we want a rifle to give us.

A handgun is a short range tool and primarily a tool of opportunity. When I handgun hunted, I never set out to shoot anything at 100 yards. I set out to have both hands free, and to be unincumbered by the extra length of a rifle. A walk in the woods is a lot simpler if you ain't carrying something that snags on everything sticking out in your path. And in the woods, 50 yards is along shot, but with a handgun was easily enough in my range ability.

A rifle on the otherhand will do what a handgun does, but when the shot gets out to bee 100 yards and greater, the rifle offers us not only extra power at range, but stability as well. Which can you hold free hand to hit better with? And it the game of opportunity show up at 100 yards, which would you rather hit it with, the 357 or the 30-30? And the greater the range becomes which tool gets the nod?

I no longer carry a handgun when I hunt. My eyes aren't what they were, and I don't find the attraction to handguns I once had. But when I did, it was as often taken as a tool to shoot a deer at 30 feet from a stand, even though I had a long gun. I could have the revolver in my lap and use it without near so much movement as a long gun would need.

I think handguns and rifle go together, but I think the performance should be such that the rifle truly extends our range of opportunity, not mearly allowing us to hit harder in the same range.

I probably did not make as good an argument for my case as I would like, and I certainly don't mean that you should give up a rifle/pistol combo. It's just that we don't live in the bush or in pioneer conditions where the need for two different ammos can be a disadvantage. And I don't think such thinking give us the best performance available from the investments we make.

All that and a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee. Enjoy a 357 combo. If you reload, look to the Hornady XTP's, they are great bullets that perform well in excess of their size.
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Offline poncaguy

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357 or 44 mag?
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2005, 07:16:00 AM »
Why I plan on deer hunting this year with my 15" 460 S&W Encore with 4x`scope. Easy to carry and shooting from rest 150-175 yards for deer is possible with this round. Of course, I won't have both hands free, but still easier to carry than a rifle.

Offline safetysheriff

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357 or 44 mag?
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2005, 02:22:01 PM »
i'd definitely buy a ruger handgun, but not the gp-100.    sure, a 6"-barrel'd gp-100 is enough to take deer with the right bullet/load at maybe 85 yds if the deer is big.....but how far will you track it, and whose tag will be on it if it's a 'tough customer' and isn't hit right.     the .44 mag' with 210 gr' jhp's in the cheap Remington brand will stop the bigger deer better....and can be shot from those excellent ruger super blackhawks that hold up very well to heavy loads.    and the load will be good for 100+ yds, if you can put the bullet where it should go.

the nef handi' (as well as the ruger) in .44 mag' can shoot the same bullet/load with Win' 296 or Hodgdon's h-110, or bulk wc-820 or Alliant's bluedot to get you excellent velocities.

i load r-p brass with win (wlp) primers using 265 gr' National Bullet rnfp's with 21 gr's of wc-820 for excellent accuracy out of my 5 1/2" super blackhawk.  with the rem 210 gr' bullets i use 17.3 gr's of bluedot with rem' primers, again for excellent accuracy.

i believe you'll be happier with the .44 mag' since you handload and can somewhat reduce the cost of that extra power.

good shooting/hunting to you,

ss'
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