AK or SKS for semi hunter?

[Ray P]

I already own a mini-30, and have been looking at one of those new IAI .30 M1 carbines.  But I find the 30 carbine pretty wimpy though, so I'm considering other options.  

I have been thinking of an AR in 7.62x39, but research shows these are very rare & pricey.  

So I guess I'm looking at either an SKS or AK in 7.62x39.  Anyone have recommendations on manufacturers?  Thoughts or suggestions on other smaller caliber semi-auto carbines that I should consider?

[BULLMASTIFF]

Have you considered an AR chambered in 6.5 Grendel.  It is a relatively new cartridge designed by Alexander Arms, and to date, several deer have been taken with it, and one cow elk.  Check out www.65grendel.com for a whole lot more info.

[Ray P]

6.5 Grendel;  NEAT!  

I knew there was a 6.8 on the way eventually, but then too; there have been a number of promises made that never get delivered in the gun world.  Looks like Grendel *has* a product to deliver, and not too expensive either, for an upper.  

(IIRC, there was a .458 conversion out there somewhere for the .30 carbine.)

[Ray P]

Guess I was short-sighted, thinking the 7.62x39 was the only intermediate cartridge available in a carbine.  Seems Olympic Arms has a 243 and a 25 WSSM upper.  Choices!

[Squeeze]

I took an out of the gun grease packing Norinco SKS, and converted it
to a detachable magazine version, and added a Draganov synthetic
stock.  I added a scope, and it was never anything better than maybe
a 3 MOA shooter, with factory ammo, and maybe 2 MOA, with
handloads.  If one fired more than about 3 rounds, fast, the POI
moved.  My sons love it as a plinker, but I don't think any of us would
consider using it as a deer rifle.  The round itself would probably
be OK for a 30-30 class deer rifle, and I know CZ makes a carbine,
chambered in 7.62x39mm.  If I were going to consider this round,
for hunting, I would probably buy the CZ.  Being a big fan of the
.308 Win, I see no need to use it for anything besides a spray
and pray plinker.  It is a ton of fun for that, but for a semi-auto
hunting rifle, I have a hard time finding something better than
my BAR LW Stalker, in .308 Win.  The BAR is a very soft shooting
semi, and is particularly soft, in .308 Win., which allows for
very fast recovery to target tracking.

I will say that the 6.8 is an interesting little chambering, but I
doubt if it will ever get beyond a small "cult" following.
If one is set on the .277 cal bullet, then a 270 WSM, downloaded,
would be much more versatile, and would grow with a young
shooter to be capable for any North American game up to Brown
or White bears.

Squeeze

[Ray P]

Thanks, Squeeze.    At 7 lbs, it's kind of hard to think of a BAR as a lightweight anything.   For just 2 pounds more, I have my GARAND which works very nicely.  Took a quick look:  the AK DOES weigh as much as my GARAND (9 lbs).  Damn.  No advantage to the AK/Saiga.  

General BAR question; why does the steel-framed safari in 308 weigh less than the alloy framed LW in the same caliber?  The short-action BAR also weighs less than the "LW".  Curious.
   
I was looking for a semi-auto light-weight plinker with more balls than an M1 carbine, that would be adequate on thin-skinned game out to 100 yds.

While a lever 30-30 is a non-semi option, I pretty much have that covered on each end with a 1894 in 44M & a 1895G 45-70 for heavy/ close-in brush.

For semis, I guess that leaves the AR in various rare chamberings, another mini-30 (now that I got it to 2MOA with FC premium or S&B FMJ, daughter has confiscated mine), or a used CZ (no semis listed on the CZ-USA site).

Edit: Discovered an existing thread on the same line in the G&A forum; no real consensus there.

[1911crazy]

Save your money get a Saiga in 308win. either a 16" barrel or 22" barrel plus chromed lined bore and chamber and will do the job either one will shoot 1.5" groups at 100yds. with open sites if you do your part for around $300 price tag its the hottest buy for a semi-auto.  Its an AK47 that spits out the 308 round.  There do to be imported again soon like the middle of October. Its the lightest sporting rifle I have ever carried no more carrying boat anchors for me.

If you want an sks go with a chinese norinco it may cost you more than the yugo but it has a chrome linded bore and chamber.  My paratrooper 16" barrel sks will shoot 1 1/2" groups at 100yds.and my 20" scoped sks will shoot under 1" groups at 100yds.  Wolf has 154gr soft point 7,62x39 ammo but i haven't tried it yet.

[Ray P]

Saiga - In 308, is that an RPK action, or pure AK?  I've heard both.  

DPMS does still make the poodle-shooter in 7.62x39 (and 6., but again, the weights are up in the 7.5-9 lb area; far more than the M1 Carbine's 5.5# or mini-30's 6.5#  (or my .308  Rem 660 at 6.5#)

Pretty much eliminated either the AK or the BAR based on caliber & weight.  The Saiga in 308 weighs 3600g (7.9 lbs).  If I'm going to lug a full MBR, may as well take the GARAND; I KNOW where that one shoots at 300 yds.

My original question was about an alternative semi to the M1 carbine that would be legal in most states for hunting.

[Squeeze]

Ray P,

A quick check of the Browning site shows the Safari is 4 ounces
heavier that the LW Stalker.  Yes, I wouldn't want to live on the
difference.  The reason I choose the LW Stalker over the Safari,
was not the weight, but for the "iron" sights.  I put mine together
as a brush gun, where I have look under mounts, so I can
swing on fast moving deer, or coyotes, under 100 yards, or
use the scope for shots out to 250 yards.  I have a 2-7 Bushnell
3200 Elite on top, that for me, makes the perfect brush rifle
combo.

As a side note, I did want the steel receiver Safari, over the
aluminum alloy receiver LW Stalker, but when I decided to
buy this rifle, Browning had discontinued the Safari models,
with the "iron" sights.  I checked around with several reputable
gunsmiths, asking about the durability of the aluminum
alloy receiver, and came away from those discussions,
no longer concerned about the receiver's durability.
After spending considerable time with this rifle, on the
range, and through one hunting season, I LOVE THIS RIFLE.
Accurate, nimble, and not too heavy, have contributed to
my fondness for this BAR.

Back to your original question about an alternative semi,
to the M1 Carbine.  The .44 Mag Carbine, that Ruger sells,
seems to be a popular deer rifle in this area.  I am not
sure why, since I have seen some pretty sorry results
from .44 Mag handgun shooters, in the deer woods. That
could be one alternative, although I don't see this as much
of an improvement over the .M1 Carbine.  

Good Luck on your quest for a 6 lb semi-auto rifle, in a
decent hunting chamber.  

Squeeze

[Ray P]

Squeeze:  My error, I picked up the wrong line on the Browning LW Stalker page; I thought the LW Stalker in .308 was 7 lbs 12 oz, not 7-02.

Guess I'm just gonna have to accept:

1) If I get a 30 carbine, hunting won't be the justification, and
2) I already have adequate firepower for the hunting in this region.
3) If I did find a semi with a short (18") bbl,  comparable in weight to a M1 Carbine, & in an MBR-sized cartridge, I probably wouldn't want to shoot it.  (As is, my Rem 660 in 308 seems to have much more blast & recoil than the Garand or the Guide gun).

[1911crazy]

The Saiga is built on an "AK" platform its really an AK47 is a sporter wrapper that spits out the 308 round like no other.  When the Russians designed the Saiga sporters they paid close attention to making them accurate more accurate than their AK brothers were. Lets face it nothing else on the market is going to outlast the chrome lined bores and chambers of the saiga's.  With its 1 1/2" MOA at 100 yds with iron sites thats pretty good with its 16" barrel using surplus ammo.  I have also heard of others hitting  gongs at 400yds with their saiga's too.  It all depends on what your looking for in a hunting rifle. After lugging around my 10lb 30-06 & 338win.mag all day the saiga sure seems light to me.

Hunt with a GARAND your kidding me right?? Its a great war weapon but its not a hunting rifle with the funky clip.  I have a buddy who uses one and I roll on the ground all the time watching him fuss with the clip trying to unload it.  The bottomline is he is too dam cheap to buy a good hunting rifle to begin with.

[Ray P]

I think the RPK is an AK platform, just stretched & beefed a bit to handle the 7.62x54R.  I expect the engineers at Saiga would have to do the same when resizing the AK action for .308.

But you hit it right on the head when you said "It all depends on what your looking for in a hunting rifle.".  The Saiga in 308 *is* more of a full-sized rifle than a carbine.  And I was looking for an alternative to the M1 carbine.    One of the rebuilt mil-surp stamped-reciever short-barrel AKs in 7.62x39 would be closer to my original intent than the Saiga.

I've got a number of full-sized rifles that will work well in the role as primary hunting rifle.  I'm not looking to replace them, I was looking to compliment them with a carbine for close-in ranges; a semi with "30-30" performance, not a rifle with 308 or 30-06.

[1911crazy]

My 16" barreled Saiga Synthetic stock isn't much bigger than my SKS paratrooper maybe the butt stock is a tad longer and its 308 they also come in .223 and 7,62x39 too.  There is suppose to be a new one soon too in 7,62x54r too.  The 7,62x39 saiga is more accurate than your run of the mill "AK" after all its a sporting/hunting rifle.  I just like the AK design because you can disassemble it in less than 1/2 a minute to properly clean and lube it.  Its a simple design yet very rugged it has a lot of plus's in its favor.

I have been waiting to see the Saiga model 100's in both 30-06 and 270win. these are Saiga hunting rifles not sporters in semi-auto too.

I was never too fond of sheetmetal stamped recievers. The Saiga is my first AK designed rifle I have always has sks's since the very first chinese was first imported here.  I have owned a semi-auto 30-06 remington in the past and I think the Saiga is a tad more accurate and about half the price. Out of all the WW2 semi-auto's I have owned and shot I have to say the SKS and Saiga impressed me the most.  Of course the garand is number one for the WW2 era nothing can match that clip setup in speed for reloading.

[Ranger J]

Does your Saiga 308 heavily dent the casings when it ejects them?  I have a Saiga 7.62-39 that sets right next to my bed.  It would be the last gun of that caliber that I would think of getting rid of, great gun.  I am looking for a simi 308 but as I reload I have been put off by the reports of dented casings.  I don’t know if my 39 does this or not as all I shoot in it is non-reloadable ammo.

[Bugflipper]

I'd stay away from the AK ( standard not saiga) I have several including the rpk models, none will do much in accuracy. The RPK is the best with bipod it is capable of 3" groups at 100 yards. A run of the mill AK on a good day will give you 4" groups. I'm not totally sure but I believe the saiga's use the Dragunov platform instead of the rpk. Like I said not sure, not trying to flame or anyting. My Romanian Dragunovs are good for .88" groups in .308 and 1.2" groups in 7.62 X 54 Russian. The saigas run around 1.5 to 2" groups from what I hear. The old SKS was built with tighter tollerances and generally will stay under 2 inches.
 You may want to look into the CETME 308. It's just a copy of a H&K 94 locally they go for $400. Well proven design, more than adequate power for hunting.

[Ray P]

A Saiga in 762x39 just showed up at the local gunstore;  I'll try to check it out this weekend.  I've handled & fired an AK, recently.  I'm curious to see if/how the Saiga feels in comparison.  

Bugflipper:  I'll have to look closer into the differences between a Dragunov & an RPK

My Mini-30 dented brass until I installed a reduced diameter gas port.
Still surprised by how much my groups tightened up after lapping the gas block, changing the gas port, and evenly torquing the gas block on reassembly.  But then again, that's probably why the daughter confiscated it.

Another DSQ:  Does anyone make a rotary-to-vertical mag for the 44 Ruger deerfield?  I know they're out there for the 10/22, so the technology is out there.

[1911crazy]

I think the saiga is the best new gun to come along since the very first sks hit our shores.  Its not your run of the mill "AK" its more accurate you may like it.  The Saiga feels good in my hands.

Here's the site of the new saiga importer its soon to hit our shelves. They have some interesting new guns too;

http://www.raacfirearms.com/test/index.htm

The saiga model 100 in 30-06 is an interesting looking gun too. I also like the LOS 9-1 bolt action rifle in 9,3x64 that has the ballastics of a 375H&H. I think the new saiga's will stirr up our gun market for sure. Try one and you will be hooked I was.

[1911crazy]

Does your Saiga 308 heavily dent the casings when it ejects them?  I have a Saiga 7.62-39 that sets right next to my bed.  It would be the last gun of that caliber that I would think of getting rid of, great gun.  I am looking for a simi 308 but as I reload I have been put off by the reports of dented casings.  I don’t know if my 39 does this or not as all I shoot in it is non-reloadable ammo.

No not at all my 308 saiga doesn't dent the cases.  All the empty cases i picked up weren't dented at all.

[Ranger J]

I am afraid that the Deerfield is sort of the stepchild of the Ruger line.  There doesn’t seem to be many ‘extras” available for this gun.  This is a shame as it is a fine shooting weapon and does a good job on deer within about 100 yards.  It would be even better with a working recoil pad as it requires heavy loads to cycle reliably and after a while at the range that metal plate begins to wear on your shoulder.

[Ray P]

It *looks* like the deerfield has the same buttstock design as the 10/22 and the mini-14/30.  Do you think the Choate Buttstock recoil pad would fit?

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edit
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Just read your post over in the Ruger forum; looks like you've tried this already.

[Bigfoot]

Forget the Stalker, the ShortTrac in .308 or .243 weighs a half pound less. 6 lb 10 oz with a 22" barrel, with BAR accuracy and reliability. How can you beat that?

[Ranger J]

The 44-mag Deerfield does share the same basic stock design of the 10/22 and the mini 14/30.  I have not checked the Choate pad but got one from John Mason Co. which lengthens the stock about an inch but is so hard that it doesn’t reduce felt recoil at all.  Looking in catalogs at the replacement stocks, etc that are available for the 10/22 and mini 14/30s it is a shame Ramline or some other after stock supplier doesn’t make one with a decent recoil pad for the 44.  I and most other 44-mag owners would probably buy one in a second.   I took mine to the range Sat. and stuck an old Cabala’s recoil pad (had to stick strips of foam around it to keep it on stock) and this completely tamed the little beast.  I have given up on finding a recoil pad and am getting a shoulder pad instead.  Shame though, just a few changes would make a good gun a great one.  Think anyone from Ruger ever reads these things.

[Ray P]

Ruger people may or may not read these boards.  Doesn't much matter.  Ruger has a corporate reputation for being very stodgy; adverse to improvements unless it can be shown that Bill R thought of it first.  

Rumor still floats around that Bill R refused to make stainless guns.  At least until AMT cornered a share of the 22LR automatic market by offering stainless clones of by then classic Ruger designs.

Better to think in terms of re-stocking the Deerfield.  Look at all the choices available in aftermarket 10/22 stocks.  Maybe one of those companies (Eagle, Fajen, etc) may be hungry enough to consider aftermarket parts for the Deerfield.

[1911crazy]

I'd stay away from the AK ( standard not saiga) I have several including the rpk models, none will do much in accuracy. The RPK is the best with bipod it is capable of 3" groups at 100 yards. A run of the mill AK on a good day will give you 4" groups. I'm not totally sure but I believe the saiga's use the Dragunov platform instead of the rpk. Like I said not sure, not trying to flame or anyting. My Romanian Dragunovs are good for .88" groups in .308 and 1.2" groups in 7.62 X 54 Russian. The saigas run around 1.5 to 2" groups from what I hear. The old SKS was built with tighter tollerances and generally will stay under 2 inches.
 You may want to look into the CETME 308. It's just a copy of a H&K 94 locally they go for $400. Well proven design, more than adequate power for hunting.

My 308 saiga will shoot 1 1/2" groups with surplus ammo i'm not sure what it will shoot with reloads or new modern ammo. My sks paratrooper will shoot 1 1/2" groups @ 100yds with iron sites and my scoped sks will shoot under 1" groups scoped @ 100yds.
Now i'm interested in getting a Romak 3 (the copy of the russian dragunov manufactured by the romanians) and i'm looking for information on it.  I heard the romak in 7,62x54 won't shoot the heavier bullets. It also will only shoot 2" to 3" groups with surplus ammo and it changes point of aim when the long unsupported barrel heats up the point of aim goes higher and the groups get larger. I'm not trying to flame anyone i just want some more info before i aquire one.  It makes me wonder if all the dragunov's are similair with the same problems(russian & chinese too).  I also wonder if the saiga tigr has the same problem with barrel heat too. I'm looking for something semi-auto to shoot the 7,62x54 barnaul soft point ammo plus the cheap surplus stuff too. I have been waiting for saiga to make a sporter in 7,62x54.

Warning:  Danger I have heard not to use Albanian 7,62x54 ammo in your romak3 because a out of battery firing can happen due to the different designed rimmed case.