Author Topic: Reading Brass -- 25-06 Ackley Please Help (Read 799 times)

hkg3k · « **on:** October 29, 2005, 12:18:07 PM »

Took my Krieger rebarreled 25-06 Ackley Improved M70 Winchester out yesterday to shoot and fireform some brass........I think I may have a problem, any cogent thoughts and insights would be appreciated.

Using factory Winchester 25-06 120gr ammo, I fireformed 40 cases. From the 1st case out of the gun, I got a ring of about on quarter to one half circumference in the brass just above the case head.......almost like a "reverse belt." I took note, thought "hummm" to myself and proceeded to shoot the rest of the 2 boxes of ammo.

Today, I closely examined both boxes of fired cases and what I have is:

26 cases without a reverse belt.....looked normal as though they were fired in a chamber cut for them.

8 cases with a reverse belt and a case stretch or stress ring going around the case.

6 cases with a reverse belt, but no visual evidence of a stretch or stress ring.

I cut 2 cases with stress rings, and inside there was a thinning "trench" easily felt with a dental pick where the line on the outside of the brass existed.

My questions are:

Is this nomal? I have fireformed 7-30 waters before and have not encoutered this problem.

Is there brass better suited for fireforming other that Winchester?

Could Krieger have screwed up the chamber or is what I am seeing simple a result of what happens when fireforming factory ammo in an Ackley chamber.

I measured OAL of each fired case and length seems to be fine.

Anyone have experience in this arena? TIA.

Reed1911 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 29, 2005, 12:59:05 PM »

It sounds like either the chamber was cut correctly and factory 25-06 was not intended to be used or it was cut a few thou. too deep and you need to not use any more factory ammunition.
What is happening is the cases are not headspacing correctly. When the cartridge is fired the forward portion of the case grips the wall of the chamber and the excess space (excess headspace) is taken up by the base of the case streaching to meet the breach. Now, you have two choices. If you want to use factory loaded ammunition for fireforming then you will need to pull the bullets out a bit and re-seat them so that when you chamber a round the bullet engages the rifling and forces the base of the cartridge against the breachface. This will stop the case streach that you are seeing (the reverse belt). Your other choice is to handled only and again when you are fire forming, seat the bullets to engage the lands. As for the cases that have the streach marks; throw them away! I say that strongly because if you continue to use them they will separate at the head and blow the gas into your face. I'd be leary of the cases that look good; just be careful with them.

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #2 on:** October 29, 2005, 01:59:40 PM »

I'd call Kreiger and see what they had to say about it. Maybe a headspace go/nogo gauge would be a good thing just for peace of mind if they are available for the AI'd calibers.

Ian

Catfish · « **Reply #3 on:** October 29, 2005, 02:37:42 PM »

It could be eather head space or brass. I just bought 500 rounds of new Win. brass in .204 Ruger and took out 15 cases for load developement and had 2 csae necks split on the 2 nd. loading and another on the 3 rd loading. Have not fired any of the rest of the brass over 1 time yet, but Win. did have alot of bad brass in this lot. I would recomand that you buy new brass and load your own for fire forming. Try 1 or 2 at factory lenth and if you have trouble use suggested starting load and seat the bullets just into the lands, this will eliminate head space problems.

hkg3k · « **Reply #4 on:** October 29, 2005, 03:27:07 PM »

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to respond. Very good responses and I appreciate them.

Ron, your thoughts make perfect sense. I just didn't think about this issue on the front end. I just finished re-seating the box of 25-06 I have on hand. Hopefully, I can make time to shoot them tomorrow to see if I get a more consistent form.

I am going to pick up some virgin Remington brass on monday. I have always used Remington brass for "loading from the ground up"........I think its not quite as hard as some of the rest. I will create some fire-form loads of my own. I used Winchester this time because when I buy factory ammo, Winchester is my choice........just always had better luck with their loaded ammo.

This rifle does show promise. While not consistent, I did get a couple of 0.5" groups of the ammo I shot yesterday. Looking forward to see what it will do with some quality loads.

Steve P · « **Reply #5 on:** October 30, 2005, 04:52:02 PM »

If you take a standard 25-06 chamber and just run a 25-06AI finish reamer into it you are actually lengthing the chamber and standard 25-06 ammo will no longer safely shoot in the chamber. From your description, that is what sounds like happened. Your factory brass experienced excessive head space and started to seperate.

You have to take the barrel off and actually set it about 1.5 turns deeper into the action then do the finish reaming.

You can safely shoot a gun that is finish reamed to AI, but you have to make your brass and you cannot fire factory ammo in it.

I would borrow a 280 Remington sizer die, or a similar -06 type die to "over size" your 25-06 brass. Then set your 25-06 die a couple of full turns up from normal and resize the brass again. You are forming a false shoulder in the neck area. Set your 25-06 die so your brass will fit in the chamber of the gun and the bolt will close firmly. Load your brass with a lighter to midrange load. Should be accurate and good for coyotes and other vermin. Once the brass if fireformed, set your sizing die down just a little more so the brass is sized enough where you can cleanly open and close the bolt with your fresh reloads.

This should help you out.

OH, grab a pair of pliers, flatten the brass with the rings around them and toss them. They are dangerous.

Steve

hkg3k · « **Reply #6 on:** October 31, 2005, 04:24:31 AM »

Quote from: Steve P

If you take a standard 25-06 chamber and just run a 25-06AI finish reamer into it you are actually lengthing the chamber and standard 25-06 ammo will no longer safely shoot in the chamber. From your description, that is what sounds like happened. Your factory brass experienced excessive head space and started to seperate.

You have to take the barrel off and actually set it about 1.5 turns deeper into the action then do the finish reaming.

You can safely shoot a gun that is finish reamed to AI, but you have to make your brass and you cannot fire factory ammo in it.

I would borrow a 280 Remington sizer die, or a similar -06 type die to "over size" your 25-06 brass. Then set your 25-06 die a couple of full turns up from normal and resize the brass again. You are forming a false shoulder in the neck area. Set your 25-06 die so your brass will fit in the chamber of the gun and the bolt will close firmly. Load your brass with a lighter to midrange load. Should be accurate and good for coyotes and other vermin. Once the brass if fireformed, set your sizing die down just a little more so the brass is sized enough where you can cleanly open and close the bolt with your fresh reloads.

This should help you out.

OH, grab a pair of pliers, flatten the brass with the rings around them and toss them. They are dangerous.

Steve

Steve,

Thanks for the input. Are you saying that Ron's suggestion (above) to re-seat (out) the bullets in the factory ammo I have left will not work? Just want to be certain. I understand your suggestion and it will involve an addtional step in the forming process. I have .270 dies and brass and can use either if doing a false shoulder is necessary.

Just to clarify. This bbl is not a re-chamber. I sent my rifle to Krieger for re-barreling to 25-06 Ackley.......it is a 26" #5 SS barrel on my M70 action. Rather than send the gun back to Krieger, I would like to work this out as safely and simply as possible. TIA.

Steve P · « **Reply #7 on:** October 31, 2005, 04:41:25 PM »

[quote="hkg3k"
Steve,

Thanks for the input. Are you saying that Ron's suggestion (above) to re-seat (out) the bullets in the factory ammo I have left will not work? Just want to be certain. I understand your suggestion and it will involve an addtional step in the forming process. I have .270 dies and brass and can use either if doing a false shoulder is necessary.

Just to clarify. This bbl is not a re-chamber. I sent my rifle to Krieger for re-barreling to 25-06 Ackley.......it is a 26" #5 SS barrel on my M70 action. Rather than send the gun back to Krieger, I would like to work this out as safely and simply as possible. TIA.[/quote]

If this was my gun, I would not shoot factory ammo in it. I am not saying you will get blown up, but you already have about 15 ruined brass, why ruin more?

I understand you sent the gun to Krieger to have the work done. I would surmise, they may have accidentaly set you up with a standard 25-06 barrel and they finish reamed it to AI without putting it in a lathe and recutting it. Sounds like the quick and easy (less costly) way to AI a barrel.

I have a .30-06 AI in my safe. I purchased an Adams and Bennet barrel thru Midway and put it onto a Mauser action. I wanted to do the AI but did not have the finish reamer. Took to another gunsmith who did. Got the gun back and was charged $90 more than the quote. Smith measured the chamber and it was already at max depth. He had to remove barrel, put it in a lathe, and remove part of the barrel and add addtl threads and had to remove part of the face of the barrel due to the addtl setback in the action. Mine now shoots AI loads or factory -06 ammo. Makes it nice to fireform.

Now you have another dilemma. What did you ask of Kreiger when you sent the gun in? Did you ask them to AI a 25-06 barrel? Or did you ask them to install a barrel in 25-06AI? The difference is a few thousandths and about $100.

Good luck in making up the brass. Your 270 dies should work well for you. The fireform loads should take a little firmer pressure to close the bolt, but this will make you some fine brass. Once fireformed, size again, trim, debur flash hole and reload. If you make up about 100 first time thru, they should last you a long time.

Steve

hkg3k · « **Reply #8 on:** November 05, 2005, 04:59:29 AM »

Just a follow-up to my posts.............

I took both suggestions

Re-seating the Winchester Factory ammo such that the bullet was into the lands and the bolt handle required effort to close.

AND

Bought some virgin .270 Remington brass and ran them thru my 25.06 resizing die. Only put enough "neck" on the .270 brass such that they would chamber in the 25-06 Ackley. Loaded up some 120gr bullets with a mid-range powder charge.

Both techniques gave the results I wanted and originally expected. I now have formed brass from which to begin building loads.

Thanks for all the help.