Author Topic: OK - Hidden threats: Handgun permits sweep country  (Read 2006 times)

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Offline FWiedner

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OK - Hidden threats: Handgun permits sweep country
« on: October 28, 2005, 03:39:28 AM »
Hidden threats: Handgun permits sweep country

By Luke Engan

OKLAHOMA CITY — In James Dark’s view, Texans have become better off in the 10 years since they began legally carrying handguns in public.

From Addison on the north side of Dallas, where Dark is executive director of the Texas State Rifle Association, he sees a drop in crime since 1995 when several states passed laws guaranteeing concealed carry permits to most citizens.

He pointed to a trend that gun control advocates have connected to assault rifle bans. Nationwide, serious violent crimes have dropped off since 1993, according to the U.S. Justice Department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics. The trend coincides with a change in laws to allow more concealed carry handgun permits.

Until 1987, just 10 states kept right-to-carry laws on the books.

That number has grown to 32 — and another two allow concealed weapons without permits.

Helping the cause, five lobbyists from the Texas State Rifle Association, Texas Gun Dealers Association, Inc., and the National Rifle Association’s policy arm are registered at the state Capitol in Austin, Texas. They face a less organized opposition.

In Oklahoma, no permits go to applicants who have attempted suicide, committed felonies, stalked, assaulted or been found guilty of illegal drug use. People in mental disability treatment, those guilty of misdemeanors that show “habitual criminal activity,” or with two or more public intoxication convictions need not apply.

After completing training, Oklahoma applicants give $100, two photos, two sets of fingerprints and a completed application form to a sheriff.

Considered among the strictest in states that issue handgun permits to most residents, Texas’ concealed carry restrictions call for a $140 fee, a full-day class and a written test in addition to a firing test.

But handgun permit holders in Texas were arrested more than 66 percent more often for weapon-related offenses than other adults in the state, according to Texas Department of Public Safety numbers.

New York keeps basic guidelines on handgun permits and gives counties freedom to set policies, said Larry Eggert, captain at the Lockport Police Department.

Niagara County issues permits on a must-carry basis, but nearby Erie County, which includes downtown Buffalo, does not allow people to carry concealed handguns unless they provide a special reason.

Paul Abel, a Shawnee gun instructor and retired sheriff, helped write Oklahoma’s concealed carry law. He said he has been “very pleased” with the result since the law was passed, but he would like to drop the age at which people can qualify for permits to 18. It is now 21.

Abel said one client of his had her purse snatched at a shopping mall. She chased down the assailant, recovered the purse and held the man down with her heel while she called police, he said. Another was approached by four armed gang members in a parking garage, he said.


Ensuring training

A recently passed federal law guarantees retired police officers the right to get permits to carry concealed weapons, with some exceptions.

Retired officers who faced discipline or sanctions from law enforcement agencies are barred from permits under the law, which supersedes state restrictions on handguns.

In four states, officials do not issue handgun permits to the general public.

The largest of these, Illinois, faces lobbying pressure from the state’s rifle association and concerns from police, said Ed Hoes, director of the Illinois Police Association in Elmwood Park.

Hoes is concerned that police in the state would face a more difficult job if citizens carried concealed weapons.

He said police cadets face more gun safety training than handgun permit applicants — and are bound to take it more seriously because the gun training is part of their career.

“There are people out there who know what they’re doing - but there are people who don’t,” Hoes said.

A favorite case for pistol permits, as concealed-carry licenses are sometimes called, is that some people think twice about committing a crime in public if they glance around and cannot tell who is carrying a gun.

Hoes said this already applies in Illinois, where a retired police officer could be nearby, carrying a firearm under plain clothes.

Like Maryland and New York, which issue very limited handgun permits, Illinois contains both large urban centers and rural hunting areas. But Hoes said police across the state have the same concern that a must-issue law could put hidden guns in the hands of people without proper training.


Ironing kinks

Oklahoma’s law, passed to allow handguns for “lawful self-defense and self-protection,” has seen about 42,000 gun owners licensed in its decade-long history, said Jessica Brown, spokeswoman for the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation.

The law requires applicants to complete an eight-hour course covering safety and how to shoot the type of gun the applicant intends to carry, which Brown said does not come close to the training requirements that police officers face.

Suzi Rouse of Oklahoma City said her training covered the legal ramifications of drawing her Beretta Tomcat 3032 in public.

In Oklahoma, licensed handgun owners cannot carry their weapon in government buildings, at public meetings, prisons, schools or sport events.

Since 1871, when Texas instituted its since-rescinded ban on concealed carries, the state has allowed guns for people traveling.

The traveling provision remained in effect after Texas’ must-issue handgun law, allowing some to carry guns without permits while traveling away from home where laws are different.

But Dark said the definition of traveling was out of date before another law recently took effect with updated guidelines.

“Basically, we’re looking at a law about guns in cars that was written before the car was invented,” Dark said.

House Bill 823, written by a former sheriff, defined travelers as people driving private vehicles, eligible for handgun permits and not a member of a state-defined street gang. They also must keep firearms out of view and not participate in criminal acts while carrying a gun.

A key part of the measure was that it shifted the burden of proof from gun owners to prosecutors, Dark said. Instead of mandating that people show that they are traveling, prosecutors must prove they are not.

Dark is concerned that officials in states with conditional permits might abuse the system, offering handgun permits based on fame or political connections.

“Every human being on the planet,” Dark said, “has an inherent right to defend ourselves.”

http://www.claremoreprogress.com/archive/article22774

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They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline Graybeard

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OK - Hidden threats: Handgun permits sweep
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2005, 05:19:34 AM »
In Bama you go down to the local Sherriff's office and tell them you want a carry permit. Fill out a one page form and leave it with them. They check to be sure you're not a felon and if not call you to come back and pick up your permit.

Cost is $10 per year. Incentive to issue? The Sherriff gets to keep all the monies raised by them to use in his department as he sees fit as a non budget income.


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Offline magooch

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OK - Hidden threats: Handgun permits sweep
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2005, 06:35:22 AM »
Washington State's concealed pistol law is about as good as it gets, but we now have a liberal, female governor and a liberal legislature--thanks to the silly idiots who populate our big cities.  As long as this unfortunate condition exists, our gun-laws are in jeopardy.
Swingem

Offline Ambushhunter

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OK - Hidden threats: Handgun permits sweep
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2005, 05:48:29 AM »
Here in NJ you can basically forget cc  (unless your a criminal).  After all the usual forms, fingerprinting and payments, not to mention weeks and weeks of time, you still must convince you local LEO you have a "justifiable" need to carry.  Oh yea....after all that, the whole process can be tossed out by the Superior court judge in your district, for any reason whatsoever.  To make matters worse (as if Sen.s Lautenburg and Corzine weren't bad enough), looks like Corzine will be our next Gov.   This state is a tough nut to crack.
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Offline victorcharlie

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OK - Hidden threats: Handgun permits sweep
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2005, 11:18:14 AM »
Quote from: Ambushhunter
Here in NJ you can basically forget cc  (unless your a criminal).  After all the usual forms, fingerprinting and payments, not to mention weeks and weeks of time, you still must convince you local LEO you have a "justifiable" need to carry.  Oh yea....after all that, the whole process can be tossed out by the Superior court judge in your district, for any reason whatsoever.  To make matters worse (as if Sen.s Lautenburg and Corzine weren't bad enough), looks like Corzine will be our next Gov.   This state is a tough nut to crack.

 
That's the reason the Tennessee Legislature found it necessary to bring Handgun carry under state control.......The legislature found that in most counties, carry permits were being denied by local sheriff etc.......It's also hard to have recipical agreements with other states when the power to issue is with the local LEO.
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
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Offline Ambushhunter

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OK - Hidden threats: Handgun permits sweep
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2005, 09:10:22 AM »
I wish I could hold out some hope for that happening here but in my view, that will never happen.  First off, the legislature here in NJ is too "uneducated" about most gun issues.  Every time I e-mail or write a letter to any of NJ's politicians concerning gun issues, they don't have a clue of what I'm talking about (unless they sponsored the bill).  I end up having to familiarize them with the bill.  Second, this state is about power.  The lib dems have it right now.  If you ain't a dem, you ain't getting anything done.  The pay-to-play and corruption in this state is unbelievable.  Each county has its own little power base with accompanying tax base to control.  Some power brokers (they call them party bosses here in NJ) are trying (and succeding) to combine county political parties (mostly Dems) to increase their powerbase and constinuency, thereby giving them greater power to raise taxes and dole out more money and jobs to the party faithful.  This in turn buys them more votes to stay in power.  From what I see, and I've lived here a long time, the sheeple seem to like it this way.  They will never relinquish local control of permitting to the state, heck, the state set it up that way.  I live in south jersey which is very different from north jersey.  On occasion I do go up north into cities like Newark, Perth Amboy, the whole metro area adjacent to New York city.  With the likes of some of the things (and people) I see in these areas sometimes I question whether or not we are better off being dis-armed in this state.  Then I pick up a paper and read about all the shootings and violence and realize (again) that the only one's unarmed are us law abiding people.  Besides, millions of lib dems in this state think guns are bad, and most people I talk to could care less about gun issues one way or the other.  I'm fighting an uphill battle and its only going to get rougher when King Corzine takes over in January.  I think this state is even too tough for the NRA to tackle.  My opinion.
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http://www.njcsd.org/