Author Topic: Ever failed with a 30-06?  (Read 1887 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DogoCanario

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Posts: 4
Ever failed with a 30-06?
« on: September 20, 2005, 03:26:43 PM »
Has anyone ever felt that their inability to quickly and humanely bring down big game with a 30-06 was due to their choice of caliber?   If they hit where they were aiming, the vital area of that particular animal?  Under what circumstances?

Offline R.W.Dale

  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2170
Ever failed with a 30-06?
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2005, 03:34:05 PM »
Why A friend of my sister inlaws coworker said that he watched a 168gr ballistic tip bounce right offin a deer he was shootin and almost hit em.

 Seriously you're kidding, Right?

Offline DogoCanario

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Posts: 4
Ever failed with a 30-06?
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2005, 04:26:21 PM »
Sorry, I apologize for my vague question. I guess that that I am trying to understand why so many people look beyond a "vintage" caliber that has generally worked quite well for most large game in North America.

BTW -- I fully appreciate the desire to find the optimal tool for a given job.

Offline Mikey

  • GBO Supporter
  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8734
Ever failed with a 30-06?
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2005, 04:39:51 PM »
Lots of folks follow what is in vogue.  You will find that most comparisons of the 'new cartridge du jour' is to the older cartridges like the 30-06, the 35 rem, or the 45-70, etc.  Those seem to be the standards that most new cartridges have to supercede to be recognized or accepted by the shooting family that follows the most recent love affairs of the gunwriters.  

I believe that as far as a vintage cartridge is concerned the 30-06 is still on the top of the heap and is still the number one cartridge for which reloading dies are sold.  In addition, companies producing that particular cartridge are now offering loads that were previously available only to reloaders.  The old 06 is still there no matter how many new rounds show up.

But, to answer your orginal question - No!  Mikey.

Offline mountainview

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 516
Ever failed with a 30-06?
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2005, 06:22:15 PM »
For the conditions that were put forth, if a FMJ bullet was used, I venture that the old '06 might have trouble.

Offline bajabill

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 712
Ever failed with a 30-06?
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2005, 04:04:37 AM »
we keep looking for something "better" and we end up with

paralysis from analysis

Offline Squeeze

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 188
Logic
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2005, 04:14:57 AM »
I am not sure that the FMJ logic, in the context of a .30-06 Sprg, is
valid.  I might be mistaken, but I think FMJ bullets are illegal,
for hunting, in most states.  
 
I do have first hand experience with a northern whitetail, shot
at 15 yards, with a 180 gr. Partition, shot out of a 300 WM,
by a friend.  He was a western elk hunter, that ended up
here in Wisconsin, due to a career move.  So we head north
to the Ladysmith area, for some management deer hunting.
In a snow storm, he has a average sized whitetail doe come
in behind him, and in the heavy cover, it got broadside, at
the range of 15 yards.  He "barrel" aimed, since his scope  
was fogged from snow, and he wasn't sure it even focused
that close!  After the shot, the deer took off, like it wasn't  
hit, but he was sure it was a good chest hit.  I caught up to him  
a hundred yards from where the shot was taken, and he
was standing on a light blood trail.  Unfortunately, another  
hunter, had wounded another deer, which had come through
just a bit before this friend took his shot, which confused
my friend.  He took the track that he thought was "his" deer,
and I returned to the shot site to analyze the "hit".  I  
found hair that looked like chest hair, and from the signs,
looked like a good hit.  So I carefully trailed the deer, and
found where my friend had become confuse, and found the
real track of his wounded deer.  I found it about another 200  
yards from that site, dead.  We analyzed the hit, and he
had hit just between 2 ribs, getting no expansion on the  
initial entry, and no expansion, through the body.  Basically
he had a perfect .30 caliber pencil hole though the vitals,
and it just took the deer a good long while to run out of blood.
So it is not just a good ol' .30-06, that can have trouble with
tough bullets.  
 
Look at the opportunities that New Chamberings Fashion creates.  
There are many good .30-06 rifles on the market  :lol:  Actually,
if one isn't in to fashionable chamberings, now is a great time
to be alive.  I see tons of really nice rifles, in .30-06 Sprg, .270 Win,
and .308 Win, in the classifieds, and at gun shows.  I am particularly
fond of .308 Win, and no I have never had an animal fail to go
down, that was hit well with that .30 cal.  Actually I had my  
80 something year old uncle, that has spent many days hunting,
look over my shoulder, when I was processing a whitetail,
shot with a 130 gr. Barnes XBT bullet, out of a .308 Win, and
tell me that what ever did that, was WAY TOO MUCH GUN
for whitetail.  The hit, just caught the back edge of the shoulder
blade, and opened a 4" hole up, just under the hide.  EWWW!
There is nothing that the new chamberings do, that the good  
ol' Turdy Ought Six, can't do, and in some cases the .30-06 Sprg
is a better choice.  Just forget your ammo, and find that out at
the last gas station before you hit the big country.  I am pretty  
sure you will find a dusty old box of 180 gr. Remington Core-Loks,
at that last gas station, or the old hardware store across the street.
 
Squeeze
Walk softly, and carry a 1911

Offline CowboyEngr

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 58
Ever failed with a 30-06?
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2005, 05:22:38 AM »
Realistically, the only big game limitations for the 180 gr. 30-06 is with dangerous game.  I wouldn't feel exactly disarmed even then.  Other than that, if a person finds the 30-06 to utterly fail, it's because they are not an adequate shooter or hunter.

I've never passed on a shot with a 30-06 that I would have taken with anything else.  I've never lost a game animal that I've hit, and second shots were never necessary.  Now, I've outright missed a few, but maybe I just admit that easier than some.  My collection list includes whitetails, mule deer, antelope, and elk.

Offline Lawdog

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4464
Re: Ever failed with a 30-06?
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2005, 01:12:10 PM »
Quote from: DogoCanario
Has anyone ever felt that their inability to quickly and humanely bring down big game with a 30-06 was due to their choice of caliber?   If they hit where they were aiming, the vital area of that particular animal?  Under what circumstances?


Yeah I have seen a .30-06 fail to kill a deer(my cousin shot it in 1978) when hit properly.  BUT it wasn’t the fault of the cartridge.  It was due to wrong choice of ammo.  Shooters fault.  The 2x3 Mule Deer buck was hit in the side of the head with a Remington 125 gr. Core-Lokt at 150(+/-) yards.  It did knock the buck out cold but failed to kill it.  By the time we got to where the buck was at it was trying to get up.  I shot it in the neck at 15 or so feet with my .44 mag. handgun and ended it’s struggle.  The skin and underlying tissue was blown away from the left eye to the ear by the bullet.  This is the reason I believe that 125 gr. bullets out of a .30-06 are meant for varmints not deer.  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline Captain_Obvious

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 46
Ever failed with a 30-06?
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2005, 02:41:18 PM »
125 grain 30-06 bullets function like hollow points. A hunter has no business using them on game larger than coyotes. 125 grain bullets in smaller calibers have different sectional densities and thus perform differently.

Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1027
Ever failed with a 30-06?
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2005, 03:53:45 AM »
As for the first question, no I've never witnessed the '06 to fail.

As for the question in your later post; Yes there are good reasons to choose "more gun".  It is not for the greater muzzle energy tho.  It is for the greater downrange energy AND flatter trajectory.

Rather than asking, if the '06 ever failed, you could ask if people ever passed on a shot with an '06 that they might have taken with a .300 WM.  

The answer to why you would need more gun is usually, "I'm not that good".  Of course we may have other limitations that pose challenges to our hunt, for example, unfamiliarity of the terrain (I.e. you're on a hunting trip far away from home), you are seeking the biggest trophy possible, you only have 4 days of vacation, you're hunting in a heavily pressured area etc.

I used to feel very confident hunting with just a muzzle loader.  I would see so many deer, that I knew it didn't matter if I had an occasional misfire.  Now, something in Wisconsin's changed.  I don't know if the number of baiters has skyrocketed and changed the dynamics or what, but we have to hunt hard just to see a few.  Now my shot opportunities are less frequent so I have been using a centerfire.
Black Jaque Janaviac - Dat's who!

Hawken - the gun that made the west wild!

Offline Lawdog

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4464
Ever failed with a 30-06?
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2005, 10:17:02 AM »
Quote from: Captain_Obvious
125 grain 30-06 bullets function like hollow points. A hunter has no business using them on game larger than coyotes. 125 grain bullets in smaller calibers have different sectional densities and thus perform differently.


My opinion too but my cousin had listened to a couple of older hunters that he respected that told him the 125 Remington Core-Lokt killed deer like magic.  My cousin had bought three boxes of those 125 gr. and he ended up swapping what he had left for 180 gr. Winchester Silver Tips to another hunter that was camped down the road from us.  It was these Silver Tips that he used to finish the hunt with.  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline Redhawk1

  • Life time NRA Supporter.
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (78)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10748
  • Gender: Male
Ever failed with a 30-06?
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2005, 04:49:56 PM »
I am a little confused here, a 87 gr. bullet from a 243 kills deer all the time. So a 125 gr. bullet in a 30-06 is a bad choice?????? :?
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

Endowment Life Member of the NRA
Life Member NA

Offline Gregory

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1482
  • Gender: Male
Ever failed with a 30-06?
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2005, 05:02:16 PM »
Quote from: Redhawk1
I am a little confused here, a 87 gr. bullet from a 243 kills deer all the time. So a 125 gr. bullet in a 30-06 is a bad choice?????? :?

 
The sectional density (ability to penetrate) of a 87 gr .243 is .206 and SD of a 125 gr .308 is .188.
 
So yes, a 87 gr .243 would be a better choice at least in theory, assuming comparison is between bullets of similar configuration.
Greg

NRA Endowment Life Member
the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Second Amendment, U.S. Constitution (1791)

Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1027
Ever failed with a 30-06?
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2005, 03:10:56 AM »
Quote
I am a little confused here, a 87 gr. bullet from a 243 kills deer all the time. So a 125 gr. bullet in a 30-06 is a bad choice??????


Perhaps even more importantly, the manufacturer of the 125 grain .30 caliber bullet did not intend for the bullet to be used on deer out of a .30-06.

There is so much engineering that goes into bullets today that really the single most important thing to consider is "what was the bullet designed to do?"

Most people just do not use a 125 grain bullet for deer when shooting it from a .30-06.  It is most likely that whoever made a 125 .30 caliber bullet intended the bullet to be shot at coyotes and other vermin OR shot from a slower velocity cartridge such as the .30 carbine.

You have to match the bullet-to the cartridge-to the game, it's as simple as that.  And it's as complicated as that.
Black Jaque Janaviac - Dat's who!

Hawken - the gun that made the west wild!

Offline bajabill

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 712
Ever failed with a 30-06?
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2005, 03:14:30 AM »
it may also have something to do with the speed of the bullet being much higher than the bullet was designed to perform at.  

Reduce the load, use a 130 gr single-shot-pistol bullet, and it should work.  But, I have no experience with head shots.  Does a 87 gr 243 work flawlessly with head shots.  I also dont know how much of a mathmatical difference in SD is statistically significant, given the variety of impact conditions ( .19 vs .20 rounded off numbers are not too great of a difference to me)

Offline Squeeze

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 188
Light for the caliber
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2005, 04:21:12 AM »
If one wants to flatten out the .30-06, with a lighter bullet, and
still get good performance on deer sized game, then let me
suggest the 130 gr. Barnes Triple Shock.  Whohee! That is one wicked
bullet,when it hits a heavy northern whitetail.  Coming out of
my .308 Win, it is nasty, and can only imagine what it would do
when launched from my .30-06 Sprg.  I haven't hunted the .30-06
in a few years, but if I ever do decide to carry it again(Father's
Rifle), I will have some 130 gr. screamers loaded for it.

Squeeze
Walk softly, and carry a 1911

Offline azmike

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 244
  • Gender: Male
Ever failed with a 30-06?
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2005, 09:38:32 AM »
Quote from: Redhawk1
I am a little confused here, a 87 gr. bullet from a 243 kills deer all the time. So a 125 gr. bullet in a 30-06 is a bad choice?????? :?


From what I gather, the lighter (100 gr. -130 gr.) bullets designed for high intensity .30 caliber rifles are USUALLY of light construction, to come apart in small game (coyotes and smaller), killing quickly.  On a larger animal (deer and larger) these bullets aren't durable enough to consistently penetrate fully, wounding, rather than killing the animal in question.  

I suppose the solids such as the Barnes would be an exception to this.

Don't know about the 87 gr. .243, but the 100 grainers tend to be more durable, put together more like a typical 165-180 grain .30 caliber bullet, which will generally have a heavier, bonded jacket, and possibly a harder lead core as well.

If this is incorrect somebody please correct me on this.

Regards,

Mike

Offline Redhawk1

  • Life time NRA Supporter.
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (78)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10748
  • Gender: Male
Ever failed with a 30-06?
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2005, 10:21:53 AM »
I understand bullet construction very well.   Now Nosler makes ballistic tips for hunting bigger game, such as deer in 30 cal at 125 gr. they do not make a varmints bullet in 30 cal. So why can't it be used?? Here is there Statement:  
Ballistic Tip® Hunting
In a perfect world, there would be no changing winds, no hunting pressure, no wary, spooked, or running game that might require a fleeting or distant shot. And all it would take to bring down that trophy buck would be a textbook 100 yard broadside shot.

Fortunately for us, the real world of hunting is a bit more challenging than that. In fact, the more you hunt, the more you realize how unpredictable and unforgiving nature can be--which is why we engineered the Ballistic Tip® Hunting bullet to be very predictable and extremely forgiving.

 


   1. The Ballistic Tip® Hunting bullet's polycarbonate tip resists deformation in the magazine and initiates expansion upon impact.

2. Fully tapered jacket and special lead alloy core allows controlled expansion and optimum weight retention at all practical velocity levels.

3. Heavy jacket base acts as a platform for large diameter mushroom.

4. Ballistically engineered Solid Base® boat tail configuration combines with the streamlined polycarbonate tip for extreme long range performance.

"For long range deer and antelope work, the Ballistic Tip has become THE BULLET."

With all that said I will stick to my barnes bullets, I don't have to worry about the jacket.  :D
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

Endowment Life Member of the NRA
Life Member NA

Offline Ramrod

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1440
Ever failed with a 30-06?
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2005, 01:39:59 PM »
Just to add to the confusion, Remington actually loads two different 125 grain bullets in the .30-06. Core-loct bullets are loaded in the Managed Recoil round, at 2660 fps, and Pointed Soft Points are what they put in the normal 3140 fps. load. I believe the PSPs are varmint bullets.
"Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine." Patti Smith

Offline rickt300

  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2937
Ever failed with a 30-06?
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2005, 08:02:51 PM »
I find it hard to believe that a 125 grain bullet from a 30-06 could not be used with success on whitetailed deer.  I have sot a couple with Speer's soft swaged 130 grain bullet, a hollow point and have to say the effect was immediate on the broadside ribcage hits. Some pieces of bullet even exited. Wonder what they are making them Remington bullets out of so they bounce off a deers head?
I have been identified as Anti-Federalist, I prefer Advocate for Anarchy.

Offline Lead Poison

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 119
You're kidding me, right?
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2005, 02:57:37 AM »
The grand ole 30-06 has NEVER let me down!

The 30-06 is simply AWESOME! :-D

BTW, I prefer 165/150 grain bullets for deer and save the 180s for anything larger. I've got no use for the 125 grain bullets. If I did, I would use a smaller cartridge instead of the 06.

Offline Savage .250

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1714
Re: You're kidding me, right?
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2005, 04:52:35 AM »
Quote from: Lead Poison
The grand ole 30-06 has NEVER let me down!

The 30-06 is simply AWESOME! :-D

BTW, I prefer 165/150 grain bullets for deer and save the 180s for anything larger. I've got no use for the 125 grain bullets. If I did, I would use a smaller cartridge instead of the 06.


  My only comment is ..............Right on!
 
 " The best part of the hunt is not  the harvest but in the experience."
" The best part of the hunt is not the harvest but in the experience."

Offline Lawdog

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4464
Ever failed with a 30-06?
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2005, 10:39:32 AM »
rickt300,

Quote
Wonder what they are making them Remington bullets out of so they bounce off a deers head?


The bullet didn't bounce off the deer's head, it fragmented without penetrating the skull.  I too used to think that couldn’t happen but it did.  And yes I know Remington is loading the .25 gr. bullet as part of the reduced load line-up.  But this was not a reduced load.  Full boat Remington Express Pointed Soft Points at over 3,100 fps.  Could make a good large varmint load but for deer, never again.  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline rickt300

  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2937
Ever failed with a 30-06?
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2005, 02:17:42 PM »
I have to say my favorite 30-06 has provided me with many deer , antelope and elk steaks. I found it very effective on the smaller animals with the 150 grain Speer and a solid elk getter with the 180 grain version of the same bullet. I did come to the conclusion years ago that I wanted nothing to do with a rifle that does it all so I relegated my 30-06 to a backup positin and now own far too many rifles to use for specialty situations that the old 06 could do just as handily. I should have put together another 06 so I could keep one sighted in for 150 grain bullets and the other 180-200 grain bullets. If I had done that I wouldn't have the 6MM rem., 6.5x55, 270, 7x57,308, 300 Win mag or 8x57 woud I? The really rough part of this reasoning is my Springfield 30-06 shoots all hunting bullwts from 150 to 200 grains plenty close enough for any reasonable purpose. In my defense I feel full power loads in the 06 are a bit rough on Texas whitetails but then I could easily load it down.
I have been identified as Anti-Federalist, I prefer Advocate for Anarchy.