Author Topic: 45-70 reloading questions (Read 1171 times)

fortress49 · « **on:** November 10, 2005, 05:55:13 AM »

Hello,

First of all, I want to thank everyone for the advice they gave me earlier when I was trying to resize my cases. I used some appropriate lubricant this time and it all worked well. After cleaning, de-burring, etc, I now have cases ready to be loaded.

Here are a few questions that I have:

1) In a Handi-rifle, can you lead up to 500 gn bullets? Is the throat long enough? You never know, I may want to load some up one day! You never know when a rampaging elephant may charge through my Houston suburb.

2) To crimp or not to crimp? What is the advantage/disadvantage to this step?

3) How does one go about choosing a powder/bullet combination? I am sure it depends on the application, but are there any generalities? What I would like to do is find a bullet for plinking (if you can plink with a 45-70, its more like plunking) and hunting. But, I don't want to spend big bucks for premium bullets. So, I need a bullet that I can load down for plinking and then load up for hunting. Same bullet with same powder. Is there such a beast? I will be hunting hogs and maybe deer. For now I am thinking in the range of a 400 gn bullet of some type.

4) CCI large rifle primers? Are they good for this task?

Thanks for any help,

Matt

PS I got a 500 gn brass jacketed (?) round nose soft point at a gun show a while back. I do not know who made it. When I put it in one of my prepared cases, it sure looked awesome! It really got me stoked to re-load these cases.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** November 10, 2005, 06:51:03 AM »

1) In a Handi-rifle, can you lead up to 500 gn bullets? Is the throat long enough? You never know, I may want to load some up one day! You never know when a rampaging elephant may charge through my Houston suburb.

Everyone of my 45-70 barrels has a short throat which limits loading big bullets to a lower power level with black powder due to the loss of case capacity, not that it is really needed if you use smokeless, but if you want to, you would need to have the barrel throated with a throating reamer. Another option is to use some of the bore rider bullets that are designed to help with the issue.

2) To crimp or not to crimp? What is the advantage/disadvantage to this step?

I haven't shot anything in the 45-70 or 45-120 uncrimped because I've read amd been told that crimping will decrease shot to shot deviation and increase accuracy, all else equal, and I tend to believe it with what little experience I've had since I started reloading.

3) How does one go about choosing a powder/bullet combination? I am sure it depends on the application, but are there any generalities? What I would like to do is find a bullet for plinking (if you can plink with a 45-70, its more like plunking) and hunting. But, I don't want to spend big bucks for premium bullets. So, I need a bullet that I can load down for plinking and then load up for hunting. Same bullet with same powder. Is there such a beast? I will be hunting hogs and maybe deer. For now I am thinking in the range of a 400 gn bullet of some type.

One of the least expensive but accurate plinking loads that I've shot is 28gr of 2400 and the 350gr Hornady RN. I've also shot this same load with the 300gr Rem HP. Using pistol powders seems to be a real easy way to shoot inexpensively, yet in the 45-70, a bunch of fun. Another load is 13gr of Unique with the 405gr cast bullet. If you do a search here for 45-70 loads, you'll get a bunch that are used by Handi shooters that are accuracte. Plinking load data can be found at the links below.

www.accuratepowder.com

www.alliantpowder.com

4) CCI large rifle primers? Are they good for this task?

Depends on the load recipe, I would use the recommend primer, changing primers can cause a problem

PS I got a 500 gn brass jacketed (?) round nose soft point at a gun show a while back. I do not know who made it. When I put it in one of my prepared cases, it sure looked awesome! It really got me stoked to re-load these cases.

If they're the Hornady 500gr RN, they won't work for hunting, they're designed for .458 win mag velocities and won't expand at most 45-70 impact velocities.

Lone Star · « **Reply #2 on:** November 10, 2005, 11:58:11 AM »

I've been loading and hunting with the .45-70 for over 30 years, and I almost always crimp my cases. The only load I do not normally crimp is for my Pedersoli RB trarget rifle - I shoot 400-grain RCBS bullets and IMR4227 - it groups better uncrimped.

For good plinking/hunting loads try the Remington 405-grain jacketed bullets (cheap from Midway). I use 17 grains of BlueDot for 1060 fps in a 16" barrel; accuracy is very good and recoil is very low. For a hunting load with this bullet try 38 to 40 grains of IMR4198 - these latter are low-pressured loads but give plenty of thump at up to 1450 fps.

Another good bullet is the Remington 300HP (also cheap at Midway). For plinking try 18-20 grains of BlueDot. Some have gone up to 23.5 grains with this bullet/powder combination for 1638 fps - but this is not a pressure-tested load and I'd not try it in a Handi.

DPRinks · « **Reply #3 on:** November 10, 2005, 04:08:42 PM »

49;
You really need to take up casting your bullets if you want to get serious with the .45-70, really opens up a whole new game with a lot of choices.
I shoot 220gr at 1100 to 2400fps, 320gr at 1200 to 2200fps, 405 at 1200 to 2000fps and 515gr at 1100 to 1650fps.
I use several powders, from Herco to IMR 4064, depending on the intended usage.
Check out casting, a really good way to streach your hobby dollars.
I shoot these in a Handirifle, I do crimp all loads, mostly to assure uniform ignition.

gstanfield · « **Reply #4 on:** November 10, 2005, 04:41:47 PM »

My 45-70 Buffalo Classic wille asily accept 500gr bullets, so far the ones I have used are the LEE 500gr pointed long distance (cast myself) and the jacketed ones from Hornady. I put a very light crimp to get the best accuracy from my experiences, but this differs form gun to gun. I'll just say that I have tried it many diffrent ways and some guns prefer one method over another, my BC prefers a very slight crimp. I use CCI primers exclusively with nary a problem yet. As to powder selection, I have tried about a dozen powders in my BC and it likes most al of them, but my favorite for expense reasons is IMR4227. My most accurate has been with IMR3031 and IMR4895 although I don't have the loads themselves memorized so I can't post them right now.

George

kjg · « **Reply #5 on:** November 11, 2005, 05:05:13 AM »

I like the 405 lee hollow point bullet got the mould from mid south shooteres supply my load is 36 grains imr 3031 its load out of my t/c katahin but smaks the blazes out of piggies and deer oh man they (deer ) just cannot take it , it hammers them to the ground neck shots head shots shoulder shots oh man and pigs you just have to load one up and see for your self and for plinking the cast bullets are a blast, just need to invest in powder and primers. kjg

Joel · « **Reply #6 on:** November 11, 2005, 06:42:03 AM »

I've shot a variety of bullets through the couple of different 45/70's I've owned and never saw the need to crimp.....all were accurate. My 14 year old NEF shoots any jacketed bullet I have tried to around an inch at 100 yds regardless of the bullet/load combination; athough my powders have always been limited to IMR4198 or RE7. I suspect if I was shooting blackpowder I'd have to crimp to keep the bullet in place. The Remington 300's from Midway are 'bout the cheapest jacketed bullets I've seen that can also double for hunting. Never bothered with a "plinking" load, since my normal load with them, or any 300 gr HP(42.5 grs of IMR4198/Rem 9 1/2 Primers), just doesnt kick a whole lot. Velocity is around 1840 fps and in the thick woods I hunt, was more than enough for the under 100 yd shots I get. I switched to the Speer 400 gr flatnoses about 3 years ago because they do less meat damage than the 300's, but at 1750 fps they are definitely not a plinking load.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #7 on:** November 11, 2005, 07:32:09 AM »

OK guys, I have asked before and I will try again, the load Quick speaks of here, " One of the least expensive but accurate plinking loads that I've shot is 28gr of 2400 and the 350gr Hornady RN." Is one of my favorite 45-70 loads. Since I do not own a chronograph, will someone who has one and shoots this load please check the velocity and let me know what it is, Thanks...(hopefully from a 22" barrel but any barrel length will work, just let me know what length you shot it from). I am considering this load for an easy shooting whitetail load since it is SO accurate....Thanks....<><.... :grin:

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** November 11, 2005, 07:40:42 AM »

MSP, I have plans for exactly that on my next range trip!! FWIW, Alliant lists a velocity of 1340fps using 25gr of 2400 with a 385gr cast bullet...no mention of barrel length is given, but it should give us a ball park idea of velocity for the 350gr RN.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #9 on:** November 11, 2005, 08:38:13 AM »

Thanks Quick, I was thinking somewhere in the vicinity of 1500 fps and would be ectatic if it were 1650. I was hoping the RNSP 350 grainer might work OK at 1650...I'll be looking forward to your findings. What velocity do you think it would take to upset/mushroom the RNSP 350 Hornadys?....<><.... :grin:

Lone Star · « **Reply #10 on:** November 11, 2005, 09:26:40 AM »

Hornady #2 lists a load of 28.3 grains of 2400 behind their 350RN giving 1400 fps in a 26" barrel. From personal experience with this bullet - I doubt you'll see much if any expansion at this low velocity. Hornady lists a minimum muzzle velocity of 1800 fps for this bullet.

BTW, cast bullets usually give higher velocities than jacketed bullets of similar weight.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #11 on:** November 11, 2005, 09:43:28 AM »

Thanks LoneStar, thats the info I was looking for, not the info I had hoped to hear, but the info I was looking for....<><....

:grin:

44 Man · « **Reply #12 on:** November 11, 2005, 10:11:57 AM »

I'm loading two loads. A cast 405 gr rn over 30 gr of 5744 and the remington 405 gr softnose over 50 gr of 4895. Both loads 'should' run about 1500 fps or a little better from my buffalo classic. They are upper level trapdoor/lower level medium pressure load and both are deadly accurate. I hope to take a deer in a couple of weeks with the remington bullet. I WILL get these loads chronographed soon and post the results. 44 Man

MSP Ret · « **Reply #13 on:** November 11, 2005, 11:10:31 AM »

Thanks 44Man, I'll watch for the post. My beards coming in for the winter and for hunting camp, I like the hat!!!....<><.... :grin:

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** November 11, 2005, 11:43:51 AM »

The Hornady 6th shows the 350gr RN and FP with MV of 1400fps thru 2200fps for level 2 and 3 45-70 loads, so I'd like to think that the bullets will perform properly starting at those velocities. I would think the FP would be a better choice for the low end of that velocity range. FWIW, they're also supposed to work at up to 2500fps in the .458 win mag.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #15 on:** November 11, 2005, 12:45:36 PM »

Thanks Quick, I'll make sure to pick up a box of FP's next week....<><.... :grin:

Lone Star · « **Reply #16 on:** November 11, 2005, 02:53:16 PM »

Quote

The Hornady 6th shows the 350gr RN and FP with MV of 1400fps thru 2200fps for level 2 and 3 45-70 loads, so I'd like to think that the bullets will perform properly starting at those velocities.

You'd be thinking wrong then. Read the recommendations for the bullets in the second volume, page 34. Sure they list a lower velocity for the bullet in the loading data, but that hardly means it will perform well as a hunting bullet at that velocity. They specifically do not list the 350RN or FN for Trapdoor loads in the .45-70 because those bullet are too tough for good expansion at low velocities - Volume I, page 591.

I shot a large bull caribou with the 350 Hornady some years ago, loaded to ca. 1800 fps at the muzzle. The bullet passed through and was not recovered, but it went through the heart so I got a good tell-tale hole through solid tissue. Neither the lungs, heart nor exit wound showed much evidence of any expansion, but the bullet knocked him down for keeps. On a lightly constructed deer I doubt there'd be any expansion at lower velocities....maybe none is needed, but I prefer my bullets to expand on game.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** November 11, 2005, 03:09:23 PM »

Heh heh, that's why I said "I'd like to think" the bullet performs.... :wink:

DPRinks · « **Reply #18 on:** November 11, 2005, 04:00:21 PM »

Remember;
The skinny bullet people are pleased when their bullets wind up as big as ours start out at!
.35 Whelen, .44-40, 44mag. and ,45-70 shooter.

fortress49 · « **Reply #19 on:** November 12, 2005, 11:38:33 AM »

Thanks everyone for all the great replies. It has given me some things to work with.

I do plan on casting in the future, but that is a ways down the road when I get more experience and of course the funds are available. I want to start out just re-loading purchased bullets. Start off walking and run with it in the future.

Thanks again,

Matt

quickdtoo · « **Reply #20 on:** November 12, 2005, 12:55:26 PM »

Matt, if you decide to shoot the Rem 300gr or 405gr, they're cheaper at Cabelas due to less shipping and and they actually have em in stock!! :wink: Everytime I've checked Midway, they're out of em and they charge more for shipping.

Rem bulk bullets