Author Topic: perfect timing?? (Read 1124 times)

bladerunner · « **on:** November 19, 2005, 02:31:47 PM »

are the 1:9 twist rate 223's already out in standard?I put a piece of tape 9 inches from the muzzle on a cleaning rod and pushed,it made a complete revolution within the 9 inches.
it also came with an extracter not an ejecter

If so,i timed it perfectly...got the 270 ultra comp before they ran out and got the 223 with the new twist rate :-D

:-D

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** November 19, 2005, 03:41:17 PM »

Apparently, the email said they would all be that way, they apparently started when they made the fluted a 1:9".

Mac11700 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 19, 2005, 06:00:32 PM »

Quote

If so,i timed it perfectly...got the 270 ultra comp before they ran out and got the 223 with the new twist rate Very Happy Smile Very Happy Very Happy

Sounds like a winning combination to me :agree:

Mac

Fred M · « **Reply #3 on:** November 20, 2005, 01:00:41 PM »

Can some body explain to me why you would want a 1-9" twist in a medium range varmint rifle like the 223.

I am aware that the High power target shooters use the heavier bullet for the better BC. But they change the known scope setting for each distance.

What advantage would a heavy bullet provide, that you can't push fast enough from 223 powder charge to gain any benefit. The long and heavy bullets will not expand like a varmint bullet unless you buy custom MEF bullets. I can see these long bullets in a 22-243 with a substantial increase in velocity.

I am totally at loss with the philosophy. A 1-12" twist in a 223 seams to me a good twist for the 223 with varmint bullets up to 55gr. I am sure you can use the lighter bullets in the 1-9" twist but with a sacrifice of accuracy.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #4 on:** November 20, 2005, 01:49:52 PM »

The same shooters that like the 35 Whelen, probably like the 1:9" twist .223!!

:-D :-D :-D

The 1:9" twist rate apparently shoots the 45gr White box stuff real well...

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=77118

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #5 on:** November 20, 2005, 02:47:04 PM »

My new 24" fluted 22 250 barrel shoots the 40 gr. B.T.'s into 1/2" with the first load I tried. Another Handi mystery? P.S. It shoots Factory Fed Preimums terrible,3". Digger

Fred M · « **Reply #6 on:** November 20, 2005, 04:25:25 PM »

Quote

The same shooters that like the 35 Whelen, probably like the 1:9" twist .223!!

What has like to do with it? Handis are not AR's. We will see?
As long as they are happy with more and greater mediocre groups the 1-9" twist won't do any further harm. Where is the intelligent dialog gone too.

Are we to a point where questions and doubt are answered with sarcasm?
Oxymoron was mentioned.
Perhaps I have answered my own question.

Crosshair · « **Reply #7 on:** November 20, 2005, 04:46:41 PM »

Quote from: Fred M

Can some body explain to me why you would want a 1-9" twist in a medium range varmint rifle like the 223.

1. For me, the reason is that I want to make subsonic .223 loads and supersonic loads using heavier bullets. I want to be able to nail a prairie dog at 100 yards without having to put in earplugs first. This means 22 LR noise level.

2. Subsonic/slightly supersonic .223 loads are flatter shooting (Higher BC bullet) and more accurate than a 22 long rifle.

3. The heavier .223 loads also tend to be quieter by a few DB because there is less muzzle blast. (This point is subjective to some people.)

4. Heavier bullets tend to do less damage to hide than light fast bullets that fragment. If one saves the fur, this is important.

5. Military surplus 62 grain .223 needs a 1-10 twist at least. (This is a big reason for 1-9 twist)

6. You can load heavy bullets to 22 Hornet noise levels for pest control and switch instantly to the high power stuff if you need the extra range.

A 1-9 twist gives (.223) the ability to do everything between a .22 Long rifle and gets within a few hundred FPS of low end 22-250 loads. (Though high end 22-250 loads leave the .223 gasping for breath.)

I used to own a Howa 1500 .223 rifle (I sold it) with 1-12" twist. I tried to load subsonic .223 using cheap 55 grain bullets. I was able to get the loads down to about 1500 FPS or so before the bullets would not stabilize and tumble after they left the barrel. Yes I could have gone to lighter bullets, but then the BC and energy of the bullet falls off close to the 22 Long rifle, defeating the whole point of what I was trying to do. A 1-9 twist will enable me to load the 55 grain bullets to the speed of sound, be flatter shooting, and have more retained energy than a 22 LR with the option of having full power .223 by just popping in a different shell.

Why lug around a 22 Long rifle, a 22 Hornet and a .223 when you can carry a .223 and different ammo loads. I have different 22-250 loads and mark the case head with a different colored sharpie. I would do the same with different .223 loads.

JPH45 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 20, 2005, 05:19:31 PM »

Crosshair, your last paragraph is why I believe cases like the 218 Bee, 219 Zipper, 25-20 and even the 32-20 have fallen by the wayside. The 223 will do all those did.

Fred, For better or worse, Americans are quite militeristic when it comes to their firearms, and what ever Uncle Sam does is quickly followded by the citizens. It doesn't have to make sense. Here in the Southeastern States, many think of the 223 as a deer cartridge. When the distance we shoot them at is better measured in feet than yards (or meters) there is merit in the idea, and a heavier bullet will always help in that. Lots of shooting done with 223's down here is done with either milsurp or with what can be called trade ammo. Yellow box UMC comes to mind.

Ultimately the answer as to why is born out by this.....A fast twist will always shoot a light bullet, but a slow twist can only shoot a light bullet. The 1:9 twist simply offers the 223 shooter more choices, that is always a good thing.

bladerunner · « **Reply #9 on:** November 20, 2005, 05:21:09 PM »

Fred....actually i just saw where they had changed the twist rate and was wondering which barrel I had gotten....twist rate discussion is kinda over my head,i really don't know much about how twist rate affects stability of different bullets....just askin if i had the new one,really :oops:

Fred M · « **Reply #10 on:** November 20, 2005, 05:37:24 PM »

Crosshair.
Your comments are very much appreciated, and show a great deal of understanding of what I was questioning. Yes the low velocities you are looking for will need a faster twist.

I have never thought of such an application and it is refreshing to see some originality on this forum. I look at the Handi as a medium varmint rifle out to 250 yards with light bullets. The 223 accuracy that has been reported has been anything but good in most of the Handis, mine included.

With what you are doing I can see better accuracy due to the low vibration created by these loads and the lesser uplift pressure on the latch.
I wish you good luck with your 1-9"twist Handi.

My 223 Handi will get a face lift and become a 6mm x 222RemMag with a 1-12" twist. It will look like my 257 Roberts but with slightly heavier octagon barrel.

Thanks for your insight.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 20, 2005, 06:20:59 PM »

Quote

I look at the Handi as a medium varmint rifle out to 250 yards with light bullets.

And there-in lies the cause of the problem...not all folks think the same way...Why not try some of the heavier weight bullets on a 600 yard slow fire course?..Why...because of the miss-perception of just what these little rifle can be...it is easy to dismiss them as not worthy to go head to head with the AR's..but since they have to load them 1 at a time with the 80 grain Matchkings...your on even footing then...

I look forward to getting one and doing some long range work with it..

Mac

Fred M · « **Reply #12 on:** November 20, 2005, 06:28:00 PM »

JP
Yes I know the military shoot long heavy constructed bullets not to kill the enemy but to wound them it take two other soldiers to look after the wounded.

But we like to shoot PD's and see the mist. A 55gr bullet will kill deer no sweat. I have done it. So the 1-9" twist is not needed in a 223 varmint rifle. That is what it was meant to be. And if you shoot deer only feet away who cares about twist. That is why I question the change by H&R to the faster twist.

It don't matter to me because I won't have one. I just brought it up for discussion.

But if you like to shoot milsurp ammo in a Handi then a 1-9" is a good plan. Not so good out in the field having these bullets ricocheting all over the place and endanger people and lifstock.

Bladerunner.
Rifle twists are a long winded explanation. Here is a brief insight.
Twist is deternment by the lenght of the bullet, the diameter, center of pressure, center of gravity, muzzle velocity, weight, shape of nose or ogive, boat tail.

In short the longer and heavier the bullet is the more twist it need, a higher velocty wil cancel out some required twist.

An over stabilized bullet (too much twist) will yaw and fly with its nose up causing arodynamic resistance and inaccuracy. Of course at 50 yards you will never notice.
.

bluebayou · « **Reply #13 on:** November 20, 2005, 06:32:59 PM »

I want a faster twist 223 so that I can try shooting looonnng range with a cheap gun. It isn't that I am going to compete with it, I just don't have a lot of money. A $120 barrel would be a lot easier for me than a $300 bolt rifle or $700 AR. I like to experiment.

AND, as Crosshair said in #5 (and JPH45 alludes to) I want to shoot cheap 62 grain M855. I have a ton and was very disappointed to discover my original Handi's 1 in 12 twist 2 years ago. (Prior Planning Prevents Poor Performance)

Fred M · « **Reply #14 on:** November 20, 2005, 06:59:46 PM »

Mac.
You did not come forward to bring up your point. How many of the Handi users are going to shoot 600yards slow fire targets. You are defending an unusual use for a Handi. This is not to say the Handi can't do it. We know better.

Wouldn't that suggest a custom barrel. Why should most of the users shooting PD's and other varmints suffer with inaccurate overstabilized bullets.

It is the same old story, use more twist than needed for most shooting to make the minority happy. I addmit it sells rifles to the masses that are not accuracy minded. They only complain why this and that bullet is not shooting worth a hoot.

Rather than increasing twist, H&R would serve users better by increasing the quality of the barrels bores which are in sad need. I would not have to rebore my 223 barel if it shot like it supposed too.

Well Mac, I am glad you got in on this thread, you have a valid point.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** November 21, 2005, 06:29:54 AM »

Quote from: Fred M

Quote
The same shooters that like the 35 Whelen, probably like the 1:9" twist .223!!

What has like to do with it? Handis are not AR's. We will see?
As long as they are happy with more and greater mediocre groups the 1-9" twist won't do any further harm. Where is the intelligent dialog gone too.

Are we to a point where questions and doubt are answered with sarcasm?
Oxymoron was mentioned.
Perhaps I have answered my own question.

Geez Fred, do I have ta spell it out for ya??? The 35 Whelen is extremely well liked by just about every hunter that has used it, your query at AR bears that out!! If you've done any looking at other forums, the 1:9" twist rate .223 rifles are well sought after and pursued frequently, not just here! Sheesh!!!

As far as the oxymoron mentioning, that was in a different thread, your hunting thread, to be exact!! :roll:

Mac11700 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 21, 2005, 06:57:25 AM »

Quote

Rather than increasing twist, H&R would serve users better by increasing the quality of the barrels bores which are in sad need. I would not have to rebore my 223 barel if it shot like it supposed too.

Actually Fred..they would be better severed by listening to those who frequent all of the Handi forums and then giving them what has been asked for...including better shape bores..but..for a long time..even on the old H&R forum..folks have been asking for a 1:9" twist for the 223's...so perhaps they are listening and trying to do better..I think someone at Marlin/NEF is finnally taking notice..and is starting to try to influence them into making improvements to their line...hence the 35 Whelen and the new twist for the 223..and better trigger pulls and lock up...now..if they would just start providing the 26" barrels in the standard calibers I would be very happy...and would be able to buy more of them...instead I have to spend what I would on 3 barrels to get just 1...

Being able to compete is different than actually doing it...and for most here I don't think that is their "Cup-of-Tea" so to speak..but being able to set up a long range target and shoot at it is easier for most folks to do...I would make a freindly wager that someone here will evintually do just that and post some incrediable groups with their Handi..it's really only a matter of time as I see it..since these little rifles can surprise most hard core bolt gun fans...

Mac