Author Topic: Big Bore Calibers... (Read 964 times)

myarmor · « **on:** November 20, 2005, 08:27:38 AM »

There has been a lot of debate and opinions on the few Big Bore barrels offered by NEF/H&R. And a ton of technical data back and forth between what each caliber is capable of. I'm not a huge Big Bore owner, but I am a fan of big calibers. Right now the only thing that I own that I suppose could be considered a BB is a 44Mag barrel and shooting 12ga 3" Slugs, in which I have a lot of fun with both :twisted: .
I suppose I have a few questions on a few calibers that I personally don't own....yet :grin:
Of course the 45-70 is a popular one around these parts. Seems pretty versatile and a lot of history too.
The 500 S&W is getting mixed feedback from what I have heard. Some love it, some don't.
The 450 Marlin is still being produced I believe, and is the most inexpensive centerfire barrel offered form the program($77.65), yet I have seen that ammo prices are pretty high as is some reloading componets for it as well. Don't take this wrong, but why is this caliber offered? I mean I am glad we have the option, but was there a demand for it?
The 38-55, a caliber that I admittedly know nothing about. But seems to be selling well. And has a nice long barrel too :agree:
And for arguments sake the 44Mag, underpowered by the rest of them, but has it's advantages in low recoil and fairly cheap ammo, and is fun to shoot too.

-What is the exact advantages of each one of these? -couldn't the 45-70 do it all?
-What other popular Big Bores could be offered that the SB2 frame could handle? I know pressures vary a lot between cartridges, that's why I ask.
-What of the new 460? If I was to go for a BigBore, this one has definitely got my attention.
-And why not all of them offered in longer barrels?

.......

sorry I keep pulling for that I know

-Aaron

Mac11700 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 20, 2005, 08:45:11 AM »

Quote

What is the exact advantages of each one of these? -couldn't the 45-70 do it all?
-What other popular Big Bores could be offered that the SB2 frame could handle? I know pressures vary a lot between cartridges, that's why I ask.
-What of the new 460? If I was to go for a BigBore, this one has definitely got my attention.
-And why not all of them offered in longer barrels?....... Smile sorry I keep pulling for that I know Smile

The answer is simple...the 45-70 can and has done it all...but folks what something different...the 450 was Marlins answer to beefed up 45-70 loads in a lever gun..and while the 450 case lends it self to wildcatters..the majority of folks just want to buy factory ammo and shoot it..and do this at a resonable cost...as to the 460's in a Handi..I am unsure it could handle the pressures involved for that larg a case head...gennerally...the 30-06 case head size and the 270's pressures is about tops for it..The longer barrels...that is entirely up to the big shots of Marlin to do that..and I still don't have a answer if they will or not..

From Chuck Hawks;

Quote

The new cartridge is a lengthened version of the .454 Casull, itself a lengthened version of the .45 Long Colt. So both of those cartridges can be fired in a revolver chambered for the .460 Magnum.

The basic dimensions of the new .460 Magnum are as follows: bullet diameter .454", rim diameter .520", case diameter .478", overall case length 1.800", cartridge overall length (COL) 2.300". The official SAAMI maximum average pressure (MAP) is 65,000 psi!

The .460's COL is too long to permit the cartridge to be chambered in existing Colt, Freedom Arms, Ruger, and Taurus revolvers, so its popularity is automatically limited to those consumers with memories so short that they are willing to do business with Smith & Wesson.

Forsaking all common sense, which would indicate the heaviest pistol bullets available in the caliber for such a large case, the basic factory specifications call for a 200 grain bullet at a MV of 2330 fps and ME of 2400 ft. lbs. A 200 grain bullet in such a big case is just about the poorest possible choice for what is, realistically, a moose and elk gun.

Fortunately, there are many heavier and more suitable hunting bullets from Hornady, Speer, Sierra, Nosler, and Barnes available to the reloader. .460 reloading information is basically impossible to come by at this writing, but Hodgdon data shows that the .454 Casull cartridge can launch a 300 grain bullet at about MV of over 1700 fps with a MAP of around 53,000 cup. I would estimate that the .460 Magnum could exceed that velocity by about 100 fps. That would be the kind of load that makes sense when using the .460 Mag. for hunting the largest North American antlered game.

Mac

poncaguy · « **Reply #2 on:** November 20, 2005, 09:46:54 AM »

My Handi 45-70 is one of my most accurate Handi's. Recoil is not bad at all after I installed the Choate Varmit stock.
I have a 460 15" Encore, it's a real handful, couldn't get it to shoot good, but It shoots 454 Casulls, and my favorite, Corbon 300 grain 45 Colt +P loads real well.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 20, 2005, 09:59:06 AM »

myarmor

Of those you listed , The 450 marlin is the only one i own . since i reload , ammo cost is not bad .

I bought the barrel for there reasons .

1 , to use for hog hunting . Having grown up on a hog farm i have found that a big slow bullet does wonders on hogs .

2 , It was something that not everyone has .

3 , The price of the barrel itself .

I would love to have a 45-70 or a 45-110 just to have one , and to see the looks on the faces at the range :eek:

Now if i can just get the 450 to group and not pattern :cry:

Extremesolo · « **Reply #4 on:** November 21, 2005, 05:05:06 AM »

I just got a .450 barrell and shot it yesterday. Recoil is a bit harsh but not too bad. I need a scope with more eye refiel and it wil be a great gun. I too bought it because not everyone has one and I got it very cheap from NEF. I do not know if they screwed up or if it was just on sale during their propmotion a few months back. It shot very good with 4 shots touching the bullseye at 50 yards. I often see people say that the .450 is expensive to shoot but I disagree. Factory ammo is not that expensive if you look around on the internet. I have seen it around $21-22 at several locations (Midway, natchez, sportsmans guide). That is roughly the same price as any other big bore box of factory ammo. I do not handload and that is why I bought the .450.

myarmor · « **Reply #5 on:** November 21, 2005, 05:39:32 AM »

I didn't realize the 460 produced so much pressure :shock: I guess it would be pushing the Handi frame a bit much then.
What is the highest pressure caliber offered in by NEF/H&R?
I thought the 30-06 was. I could be wrong on this.

I can see some reasons for buying a 450, like you all said it's the most inexpensive barrel, not everyone has one, and it's a performer.
What are the strengths and weakness of the 450 as compared to the
45-70 and 500S&W?
I just don't hear from many that shoot this caliber in a Handi around here.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #6 on:** November 21, 2005, 05:50:42 AM »

The .270W is the pressure king at 65kpsi in a Handi, but there are several runner ups, too....

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

myarmor · « **Reply #7 on:** November 21, 2005, 06:46:49 AM »

Just to play on the broad range of theory here, then, is it quite possible a 460 would work?
I remember about someone making up a 7mmMag barrel for a Handi, and it ended up stretching the frame. I don't pretend to know a lot about this subject, so I won't act like I do.

From this chart the 270 has 65,000psi and you look at the 7mmMag it has less with 61,000, but it failed and ruined the frame. Is this where case head comes into play?
I realize that there are many reasons for driving up pressure's, so I suppose then the theory of a 460 might not work then-Anyone confused :-D

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** November 21, 2005, 06:58:48 AM »

That was a 300 Win mag that shot loose in just a few rounds on a Handi frame. With a case head diameter of .478" for the .460S&W compared to the .470" of the .270, I think it might be doable, any volunteers?? If it showed signs of too much pressure like hard to press the barrel release, you could always shoot .454 Casull loads in it!! :wink:

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ga_handguns/sw460_072905/

Mac11700 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 21, 2005, 07:14:08 AM »

Quote

From this chart the 270 has 65,000psi and you look at the 7mmMag it has less with 61,000, but it failed and ruined the frame. Is this where case head comes into play?

Yep..and I believe it was a 300 Winny mag that did it in if I remember correctly..One other problem with the 460...they use a gain twist in the barrels to avoid bullet deformation..and I would doubt NEF would ever offer it..even if you could hold the pressures down on it...

Mac

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** November 21, 2005, 07:20:59 AM »

I think the .45-70 is the quintessential big bore in a Handi, shooting a 300gr projectile at 2400-2500fps is plenty......on both ends!!! Now, if you just want something different....that's another story!! :wink:

myarmor · « **Reply #11 on:** November 22, 2005, 07:50:18 PM »

Yeah I suppose your right Tim. I gess a 416 Rigby is out of the question then.....man. Oh -well

safetysheriff · « **Reply #12 on:** November 23, 2005, 04:13:26 PM »

m'a'

to say that the .44 mag' is "underpowered by the rest of them" is something of a misconception. sure, it's no .45-70 as far as "stopper" cartridges are concerned. but it's: generally easier to load for target-grade accuracy; got a broad choice of bullets in both jacketed and cast; capable out of a 7 1/2" revolver to move a 320 gr' hardcast bullet to approx' 1400 fps (per j.d. jones who sold the molds) which can penetrate the frontal plate on an elephants skull; able to handle at least 95% of all the scenarios you can conjure up while hunting in close quarters in north america.

the way i see it, many times the .45-70 is overkill. it's just not needed for deer, black bear, elk, or moose under most conditions. yes, it is certaily adequate. it's just so much more than is needed...

if the .44 mag' is loaded to the 40,000 cup level that it can safely handle it is capable of much more than many of today's shooters seem to understand.

take care,

ss'

myarmor · « **Reply #13 on:** November 23, 2005, 05:22:26 PM »

I in no way intended to mean that the 44Mag was incompetent. I love mine. Today I just picked up a Speer reloading manual, #13 I believe, and have read up to page 63 in just a couple hours :shock:

Couldn't put it down. It's a great manuel and easy to understand too.
I can't wait to pick up a set of dies when I start to reload for it. But I know It would be wise to slug the barrel to see just how big a diameter it is before I go'a ordering supplies.
Many a big game has been killed with the 44Mag. And the 22" barrel helps a lot for increased velocitys. It's a great cartridge in a revolver, but in a short small rifle it's not to shabby either :agree:

safetysheriff · « **Reply #14 on:** November 24, 2005, 04:31:34 AM »

Quote from: myarmor

I in no way intended to mean that the 44Mag was incompetent. I love mine. Today I just picked up a Speer reloading manual, #13 I believe, and have read up to page 63 in just a couple hours :shock: Couldn't put it down.

m'a'

do you remember what johny depp told orlando bloome in "pirates of the caribbean" when bloome said he practiced sword-fighting three hours a day?

depp told bloome, "you need a girl, mate!"

Please, just think about it!

:-D :-D

ss'

myarmor · « **Reply #15 on:** November 25, 2005, 06:23:57 AM »

:toast: Yes, 2 things in which I am both passionate about

Fortunately,I got them both covered for now bro :wink: